[DoreenMichele]

That's a two-way street. Reality also follows from ideas.

Perhaps most people can't tell good writing from bad, but the HN crowd is more able than average to distinguish the two. Yet the attitude here boils down to "writing isn't a real job -- if you don't like working for peanuts, then STFU and get a real job!" HN members actively find ways around pay walls, more aggressively than most use ad blockers etc. Most people here are well heeled and can afford to pay for subscriptions, but the dominant attitude is "fuck no to that -- writing should be free!"

[josinalvo]

Not so much "writing should be free", but "I dont trust and consume a specific source enough to justify subscription" with the adendum that "ads are evil". At least for me.

Edit: having read the "hand licking incident" I believe it did give me value and I would be willing to pay 1 dollar or so as thanks (not implying that I got only 1 dollar value, or even that I got as much as 1 dollar value. Just a number that seems reasonable).

There is the matter of how: to do it I would probably have to spend much more than 1 dollar in effort.

And there is the matter of scale: I want to pay you for your work in giving me an interesting insight. But if we started to do that massively, people would optimize for "things that seems insights" not for insights... (see https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/07/30/meditations-on-moloch/)

[DoreenMichele]

I primarily try to monetize my blog writing with tips and Patreon. Someone who doesn't want a recurring monthly charge can leave a one time tip.

Even though I removed ads from most of my sites in part to respect the boundaries of people who hate ads, I mostly get endless excuses rather than funds.

When I ask "How can I monetize my work?" people don't actually have a solution. They seem to think if you get enough traffic, that automagically leads to money, overlooking the fact that this concept only really works for an ad-based model and widespread use of adblockers kills it.

I sometimes get told "Product sales of some kind." Nevermind that this is another form of whoring out my writing to the need to sell something other than the value of the writing per se and also people on HN equally bitch about the evils of content marketing and how it is one of the things ruining the internet.

I've heard these arguments for years. I've tried to find a means to make money without being evil in some manner. The result for many years now is virtuous and intractable poverty.

When push comes to shove, the real answer boils down to: We expect large quantities of quality writing on a regular basis and we refuse to pay for most of it. We also will get up on our high horses and get all offended if you dare to use expressions like _slave labor_ to describe our entrenched expectations and the de facto outcome. Don't confuse me with the facts. My mind is made up!

It's quite tiresome to keep hearing the same BS over and over while I continue to live in poverty and yadda.

Edit in response to your edit: I call bullshit. If you honest to God want to give me a single dollar, you can do so via either PayPal or Venmo right now without further hypothesizing about how giving me a single Goddamned dollar is some new means to ruin the internet, along with every other means to pay for writing. Because beneath all the hot air is the fact that most people simply expect slave labor to create good writing. If this weren't true, I could pay cash for a cheap house in my small town and quit whining on HN about being poor.

[josinalvo]

fyi: paypal refused to allow me to change my password, venmo refused to accept my non-US account and patreon(1) refused my non-US credit card. As expected, I did spend much more than one dollar in time trying to send you money. What I did not expect was to fail.

(1) I meant to be a one month only patron.

Also, take my data point and do with it as you will. Call me evil/slaver/bullshiter/whatever. I was trying to help and also to discuss, but I no longer feel inclined to do either.

[DoreenMichele]

Thank you for trying and for following up with this detailed reply.

I was trying to help and also to discuss, but I no longer feel inclined to do either.

Yes, this is par for the course: People get mad at me for effectively communicating that there are no good solutions here, no matter how hard I try. And it becomes a new excuse to blame me for my financial problems and declare "Not my problem! I'm done here!"

I genuinely bear you no ill will, but you and I are posting on a very public forum, so I think there are larger things at stake than your feelings. Other people need to genuinely understand how this works if it is ever going to change and being too polite about this fails to get it through to people.

They just keep arguing that I must be wrong, there must be some means for someone to make money as a writer that doesn't violate any of their constraints for how to make money as a writer without being evil. And, besides, their desire to have an ad-free, whatever whatever internet is far more important than my financial difficulties.

I got these kinds of arguments even when I was literally homeless and going hungry, which I found completely mind boggling. But, to their minds, my homelessness was merely evidence that I was incompetent and there was no reason to take me seriously, not evidence that, no, seriously, most writers really just can't make the money they need in the current climate.

You have a good day. I know I can be hard to take.

[chongli]

It isn't just a dichotomy that bad writers produce bad writing and good writers produce good writing. Good writers are even better at producing bad writing, because they produce bad writing that masquerades as good. We're not dealing with random defects, we're dealing with agents and their agendas.

[DoreenMichele]

We're not dealing with random defects, we're dealing with agents and their agendas.

That's a reasonable point, but people mostly don't tell me "It's a trust issue. I would pay if I believed I could trust the motives of the author/source."

The overall attitude expressed is consistently "I'm simply not going to pay for writing. If writers want a middle class income, they should get a real job."

Once in a great while someone will agree with the general point that if you want to be able to trust what an author is saying, you need to pay them for their writing and not expect them to monetize with ads or sponsors because that introduces a conflict of interest. One person cited Consumer Reports as an example of this model and why they pay for a subscription.

But that's the exception, not the rule. Most comments here consistently express the attitude that they simply will not pay for writing and writing is not a real job.

At the same time, journalists get attacked for not doing their job adequately well, etc. It mostly falls on deaf ears to point out that journalism simply doesn't pay what it used to and there is a cause-and-effect relationship between the lack of adequate pay and the lack of quality writing.

[chongli]

The overall attitude expressed is consistently "I'm simply not going to pay for writing. If writers want a middle class income, they should get a real job."

There's more to trust than belief in the veracity (or lack thereof) of a statement. When you trust a writer, you not only trust their claims, you trust that the substance of their writing is worth your time. The attitude you highlight suggests to me that many people do not see a lot of writing as being worth their time.

Unfortunately, people's judgements of value can be strongly influenced by price. When the quantity of readily available, free writing increases dramatically, people's judgement of its value goes down. Simply put, they no longer trust in the institution of writers as a medium.

[DoreenMichele]

I'm a writer. Some of my writing hits the front page of HN. This piece did fairly well on the front page in terms of both karma count and discussion: https://raisingfutureadults.blogspot.com/2019/01/the-hand-li...

It also got copied and reblogged, sometimes legitimately with my permission and sometimes not. For me, it is the first hit if you google the expression "the hand licking incident." It seems plenty of people found the piece worth reading.

It made not one thin dime.

I spent around two weeks on that piece. It's at least my third attempt at a parenting blog. I get paid for freelance writing, have years of experience blogging, about six years of college and if karma count is anything to judge by I'm a "respected member of the community." (My old account has 25k karma and this one currently has 19k karma. If it was all under one account, I would be decently high on the leader board.)

It has no ads on it in part because I would rather not be a shill for god-knows-what. I would rather be paid for my writing. But it also has no ads in part because I know how much the internet in general and HN in specific hate ads these days. It is supported via tips and Patreon.

I'm quite open about how much I struggle financially and that I make my living as a writer in part because I'm medically handicapped and can't do a lot of so-called "real jobs." Given that we have worse economic inequality than in The Gilded Age, "get a real job" is a specious argument anyway.

The reality is that the current attitude is that writing simply should be slave labor. Period. If you don't like it, go do something else. Not our problem that you are literally homeless and going hungry, bitch.

Meanwhile, five million monthly visitors to HN expect the front page to be filled daily with good writing and they bitch and moan about how there isn't enough good stuff on HN and the front page moves too slow and on and on.

I don't particularly care to continue this discussion further. It's not likely worth my time.

(Edit: Not currently homeless, but I was for nearly six years. I still struggle with food insecurity and general poverty.)