Ask HN: Series B – Join or Not Join

[yought]

Hi all

Need some quick advice.

I am currently being offered a role at a Series B startup. Their base is much lower (30% drop) but has an OTE that makes it up to a 12% drop if i hit my targets.

I also get 8k stock options at $1 but i feel like that's just worth very little. They also won't tell me how big the pool is and the percentage of those stocks are.

The role itself would actually be a lateral move but with a wider capacity to build the region out into what I want.

For context, I am currently in a specialised manager position hoping into a more general manager position but with potential to grow into a head role (I am in APAC) company!

My current company (10k employees), however, is offering to promote me to a lead role at some point as well.

It would be great to get some advice on the stocks component (if this is normal not to reveal) as well as if it's worth hoping to a startup if it's a lateral move.

[davismwfl]

At Series B things are more figured out in a company and they should be focused on scaling and growing. So frankly I'd be fairly unlikely to accept 30% below market from a Series B company, however you didn't specify if the base was below market or just below your current comp so hard to judge. You also need to make sure you are comparing apples to apples as far as comp.

Stock options or the like for a Series B company hold a bit more potential value IMO than a seed or A company. However, they are still essentially worthless unless and until the company is acquired or goes public. So you need to evaluate them as such. And a company not telling you the pool size or percentages etc is not being very transparent so I'd expect anything they give you to become so diluted it is worthless and you should negotiate comp as such. Not saying they are a bad company, just don't deceive yourself about the value of options and in a startup transparency around this type of info is pretty critical.

My 2 cents, don't go to a startup as an employee if you are trying to make money. Go to a startup because of the experience and chance to really put your mark on something as well as learn new skills etc. At Series B, that ability is starting to diminish some but still exists, so you have to judge the company and team on if you'd be happy. Just be cautious of low ball offers and promises of riches to come because in all likelihood they won't happen.

[yought]

Some really good advice here! It's actually below market rate and I am one of the first employees here in region if I join and I have a feeling they just trying to hire cheap.

I'm trying not to look at the stocks as anything BUT I feel left out in the open because they aren't telling me much about them.

I do want to join for the learning potential but there are a few red flags that I feel like shouldn't be said at the negotiating table such as: - our offer is good, you're the most expensive hire yet in the region - i can't tell you the percentage pool / how many existing stocks there are

I will have a good hard think about it - thanks for the advice!

[davismwfl]

Yea the fact they are actively saying they can't/won't tell you pool information is a major red flag. The fact they are trying to lowball you from a market rate when they are Series B is another. I'd pass on this opportunity if I was you. Transparency is critical for a startup, it is part of the reason people are willing to join a ship with so many holes in it and try to plug them up while trying to sail across the ocean. Without transparency a startup becomes a horrible place to be and you will grow to distrust everyone quickly because things will go wrong, there will be issues and if you can't trust you are getting an honest picture of them that's a major problem.

A number of years back I applied to a few startups, I wound up with offers from 3 that I liked, I am still at the one I liked most. Another was a Series B company that is well known and was proud to tell you they were highly profitable (was even covered in the media). They didn't hide option pool information or anything but the pass on them for me was out of one side of their mouth they said we are highly profitable and see no further need to raise more money. Out of the other side, we can't pay market rates cause we are a struggling startup. One of those statements was probably true, but the fact they just wanted to hire me at a massive discount (~40%) was a red flag they would treat people poorly where it suited them all while saying they were an awesome startup. That was an easy pass for me. Actions and words need to match or you are hiding something and if that is on a critical item like compensation or option pool etc I bet they are hiding a ton of stuff from employees and not being honest.

As for someone saying startups not sharing option pool information with lower level employees, don't accept it as normal or valid, it is not. I have heard of what they are saying but it is always a red flag.

[askafriend]

If they won't tell you the % / pool then just reject the offer. You don't need to think much about it.

Don't accept any offer where they don't tell you the % of the pool you're getting especially if the implication is that your stock options are meant to cover the below market base salary.

Also make sure you're clean on vesting details, exercise horizon, etc.

[softwarefounder]

I've found that it's actually not too uncommon to share pool and percentage details with individuals who are not high up at the startup.

By Series B, they should the budget on head counts figured out enough, so I'd consider pushing back on that base salary a bit.

[yought]

Yeah I tried but they cite that they're a startup. It's definitely below market rate by a bit.

They're also citing i'd be the most expensive employee in the region which is kind of alarming considering im not that senior.

[davismwfl]

This is also a red flag. If you are the most expensive employee in the region and a ~30% discount from market that means they have not been lifting people at each raise up to a better salary and there will be a day of reckoning. It also means your salary would likely not change and you'd be stuck there till you left.

Now I say run away don't walk away from this company, too many things are against you here. I know that is easy to say and harder to do, but don't sacrifice yourself for a company that isn't being good stewards of their employees and isn't being honest at the earliest part of your relationship.

[icedchai]

I've never had an offer where they refused to tell me the pool or percentage. This would be a hard pass. You cannot properly evaluate the offer without this information.

[rajacombinator]

“They also won't tell me how big the pool is and the percentage of those stocks are.”

That’s when you laugh in their face and tell them to F off.