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by GaurVimen 2558 days ago
I wonder at what point the Tories will deem food and accommodation as non-essential?
2 comments

Isn't that already the case to some degree? Not just the Tories, but pretty much all but a few fringe parties seem happy to make decent food and accommodation a luxury. For example: https://www.worldbank.org/en/news/press-release/2018/11/08/e...
The American right wing already believes food is a luxury: https://twitter.com/RepThomasMassie/status/10681363932375572...
But that tweet is nothing of the sort. Food is not a luxury, but you can never have a right for someone else's labour.
> you can never have a right for someone else's labour.

The reason a human's productivity is orders of magnitude higher than that of a stone age person is the work of uncountable legions of dead people. Almost everything we have and know is due to network effects of humans working together in time and space. The current generation's productivity is almost all due to inherited tools and knowledge. You do live off of "other people's work", we all do. The amount that you yourself contribute, and that you are concerned about, is negligible in comparison to the inheritance. We can afford to be much, much more relaxed. You are not living a stone age life where your concern would have had merit, because most of what you achieve was indeed attributable mostly to yourself (although even then tools and techniques inherited from previous generations probably was a major factor).

If somebody is able to "make millions", or even billions, how much is only their own effort? Put a baby in a swamp and see what they can achieve. That billionaire is sitting in the center of a vast network of humans in time and space - most of it consisting of the dead who cannot be paid even if you wanted to. It's certainly good and necessary to have such people in central network locations, I just dislike when people think those guys are "self-made". I let you live alone in a remote forest, and even with all modern knowledge, where is your "self-made" empire? Same for a 50k/year job, who still is vastly more productive than a $100/year stone age guy not at all because of superior skills or effort. Your position in the space-time human network determines most of your impact.

So to what I quoted of your comment, that is exactly what we do, every one of us. Some just like to pretend that their own contribution is much more significant than it really is, because almost all of the productivity and possibilities are from the network and not from a particular person. So - relax! It isn't you who pays, it's the dead >99.9%.

This is true, and that's why you should advocate for charity - which is based on free will decision on controlling your own property and resources, just as all the interactions that make up modern world that you so thoroughly describe.

The "human right" concept, however, is entirely different: it is referring to use of the mechanism that has monopoly on violence, the state, to redistribute these resources, by the use of or threat of use of said violence, without any free will involved. This mechanism completely removes individual capability of making a moral decision, and uses morality as a pretext to obtain monopolistic, bureaucratic power.

In my view, this monstrous mechanism, which is capable of despotism thousands as bad as any other, should be only used for things that cannot be achieved without it, such as rule of law. Charity and helping others is a noble thing, but since it can be achieved without it, just through free individuals decisions, it should.

Using violence to collect taxes is monstrous but using violence to protect the property of rich people is right and just? In nature, a person cannot have infinite wealth. The idea that someone can have as much wealth as they want is a creation of the state and is enforced by violence.
I don't understand the argument against government violence. Violence has a very interesting feature by design: assuming you have enough force you can always resist it. There is some slack in the system that lets you change it under special circumstances. Compare that to other non violent ways of enforcing the law. In theory one could genetically engineer humans to always obey the government. There is no opportunity for resistance and even if by mere chance you do resist, you might be subjected to a drug or gene therapy that "fixes" you.
> In nature, a person cannot have infinite wealth.

In nature, most of children die in infancy, might makes right, murder rates are sky-high and starvation is a constant threat.

So, if anything, using "in nature" is working against your case, not for it.

> The idea that someone can have as much wealth as they want

Nobody can have as much as they "want" - but everybody should be able as much wealth as they have acquired through any kind of lawful exchange.

Charity has been proven, time and again, to be completely inadequate to the task of providing for the poor and needy.

We live in a society. The rich benefit hugely from that society. It is their duty and responsibility to give back enough to help maintain and improve that society.

To say otherwise is, effectively, to say that it's OK to want everyone beyond the walls of your castle to starve.

> It is their duty and responsibility to give back

You cannot decide what other people's legal duty or responsibility is if they hadn't entered a voluntarily agreement with you. And moral duty should never be imposed by violence - it's always up to individual moral choice.

> To say otherwise is, effectively, to say that it's OK to want everyone beyond the walls of your castle to starve.

No. To say otherwise is to value individual choice and responsibility over the dictate of the masses.

There's always a state in one form or another. Always.

The question is who controls it and who benefits from it, not whether or not it exists.

> not whether or not it exists

It seems that you're trying to frame my argument as if I wanted to abolish the state completely, but I have said nothing of the sort. Just as you're saying, the question is, in what form should the sate exist. And my answer is, in the most minimal form required to uphold the things that no other institution can.

But food stamps arent the right to someone elses labor. The laborer is getting paid. Its taking tax money and giving it to a producer and a consumer.

Its really no different than a subsidy.

If you think taking money from the population and redistributing it is theft, youre basically arguing against taxes.

Yes, exactly.