[magduf]

The military-industrial complex will throw money at things, but only in stupid ways. Are they creating jobs paying $500k for engineers to work in this sector and keep them interested in this kind of work and these ancient technologies? Of course not. So where do you think they're going to find the talent needed?

Feel free to apply for some jobs in the defense sector to find out how much they pay. You'll make more money working at FAANG companies, and you don't have to wait years for a security clearance to be approved. Jobs in aerospace, in particular, are pretty lousy paying compared to what engineers are getting elsewhere.

[burfog]

Right, we should all work for FAANG companies. Likewise, why wouldn't any person who loves sports work for the NBA instead of as a gym teacher?

You'll make more money working as an NBA player, and you don't have to wait years for a teaching certificate to be approved. Jobs in schools, in particular, are pretty lousy paying compared to what sports lovers are getting elsewhere.

The fact that FAANG companies employ about 0.1% of the software developers could have something to do with this. Practically speaking, nobody works for the NBA or for a FAANG company.

So it is a silly comparison. Defense contractors can and do beat plenty of normal companies. For example, Tesla pays software developers just $78k to $147k. Defense contractors can beat that before even adjusting for quality of life. You can work a 40-hour week, or you can have Elon Musk cracking the whip. The defense contractor positions are frequently in affordable locations, making the numbers a far better deal than they would appear.

[magduf]

>For example, Tesla pays software developers just $78k to $147k.

Citation needed. That seems suspiciously low for silicon valley.

>Likewise, why wouldn't any person who loves sports work for the NBA instead of as a gym teacher?

Your argument doesn't make much sense here. You trot out this line, but then you try to make the case that defense contractors pay well (which isn't really my experience; they pay OK (except for "cyber" positions which are paying really well currently), but nothing fantastic compared to non-defense companies in other non-silicon-valley areas), so it doesn't follow. Gym teacher jobs pay close to poverty-level wages, so accordingly, the people who take those jobs are usually people who aren't good athletes themselves, or maybe people who have a spouse with a good income and can afford to have a job for the fun of it.

[burfog]

It's not suspiciously low for silicon valley. It's just normal. Your perception is miscalibrated due to FAANG people bragging.

https://www.payscale.com/research/US/Employer=Tesla_Motors/S...

It is improper to declare that any company outside the highest paying 0.1% is somehow not up to standard.

It is also improper to ignore working conditions. If you end up working 60-hour weeks for $180,000 the pay is no better than working 40-hour weeks for $120,000.

It is also improper to ignore cost of living. House prices can differ by a factor of 20, not even counting the collapsing locations. Just the difference between San Francisco and a medium-small non-coastal southern city is that much.

[magduf]

>It is also improper to ignore cost of living. House prices can differ by a factor of 20, not even counting the collapsing locations. Just the difference between San Francisco and a medium-small non-coastal southern city is that much.

This isn't correct at all; you're totally overstating the CoL differences. If a decent apartment in the Bay Area costs as much as $3k/month (I'm guessing here), there's no way in hell you're going to find a comparable place anywhere in the country for $150/month. In my experience, cost-of-living just doesn't differ as much between places as people like you claim it does. What does differ is price-per-square-foot, but no one realistically expects to live in a giant McMansion in the Bay Area or Manhattan as a middle-class person. The problem with "low cost" areas is that they typically don't have any actual inexpensive places for single people or childless couples, and your options are usually either a house that's much too large with huge utility costs, or a trailer park surrounded by opioid and meth addicts.

[burfog]

Actually no, I'm understating the CoL differences. I have relatives in both types of location, so I know. I'll pick some examples from their neighborhoods. (and yes, they do have jobs, including tech jobs) It's making excuses to say that "no one realistically expects to live in a giant McMansion in the Bay Area or Manhattan as a middle-class person", because that sucks. Real houses rent for more than double your guess. Don't expect me to believe that you won't be "surrounded by opioid and meth addicts" in the Bay Area. There are needles, tents, and poop on the streets.

In the middle of San Francisco, at 200 Amber Dr, a house sold in January for $2,450,000. It isn't anything special, at just 2020 square feet. It, frankly, looks ugly and unlivable. It's some old trash from 1962 on a lot that is measured in square feet! Converting that 3149 square feet gives just 0.07229 acres. It's a joke of a little house that should have been bulldozed by 1985. BTW, it would rent for about $7,500 per month.

In much of the country 1/20 of that ($122,500) would get you a similar house on a 0.14 to 0.30 acre lot. Let's see...

You can get 3021 square feet on 0.68 acres for $130,000 in Cocoa, FL. It's older. OTOH, you get more bathrooms. Note the 50% extra floor space and nearly 10x property size.

You can get 1652 square feet for $122,900 in Melbourne, FL. It's being built in a 55+ community by a developer. It'll come with all sorts of community extras, including a lake for fishing.

You can get 4992 square feet on 0.3 acres for $150,000 in Georgetown, KY. There are 7 bedrooms and 4 bathrooms. It comes with beautiful wood floors, high ceilings, a partially spiral staircase, and a fireplace. It's right on Main Street.

You can get 1904 square feet on 5 acres for $89,900 in Georgetown, KY. It's a manufactured home. There is a brook (stream) on the property! You could go hunting with an AR-15 in your backyard. Again, it's 5 acres, and look at that price.

You can get 1987 square feet on 0.1436 acres for $134,900 in Fairborn, OH.

You can get 1976 square feet on 0.41 acres for $115,000 in Beavercreek, OH.

You can get 1920 square feet on 0.1015 acres for $48,900 in Dayton, OH. It does have that icky city feel, being 500 feet from a large park and 750 feet from a damn bus stop, but evidently you wouldn't object.

BTW, while looking for houses I stumbled across trash in Dayton, OH. One is a 4-unit place with the units renting for $300 to $390 per month. The whole thing can be owned for $99,900. A similar place going for $129,900 has 3 units renting for an average of $458 per month.

[magduf]

You're still sidestepping my argument altogether, jumping from renting prices to sale prices. I don't want to buy a house. How much does it cost to rent in the Bay Area, and elsewhere; is it a 20x difference? I don't think so.

I see this in the DC area where I live. It's perfectly possible to rent a very nice place for 1500-2000/month. It's totally impossible to rent anyplace decent in the country for $75-100/month (a 20x difference).