[strcat]

> I believe there is a general lack of awareness of what AOSP is without Google services and add-ons on top of it.

That lack of awareness seems to be your own.

> In particular, I have personally had many issues with GPS location for the past fews years. Out-of-the-box, GPS simply does not work without additional non-free software to help it out.

GPS doesn't require Play Services, etc. Play Services provides supplementary network-based location services for providing a coarse, inaccurate location estimate without waiting for a while for a GPS lock. The infrastructure for this is open source and part of AOSP. It has generic, provider-agnostic support for services like supplementary location providers, text-to-speech, speech-to-text, geocoding, etc. Play Services is what provides these on phones with Google Play, but there are alternative implementations used by Amazon and in China.

> Applications that are built to run on stock AOSP are not the 'Snapchats' or 'Instagrams' of the world.

Yet apps like WhatsApp, Facebook's apps, Microsoft's apps, etc. do work without Play Services... despite what you claim. A lot of these mainstream apps do work fine, and there's a large ecosystem of open source apps that are mostly designed to run without Play Services. Providing the Play Services APIs with an alternate implementation and is also certainly possible, although I would prefer a different approach than microG.

How is any of this resolved by moving to a completely different OS with far less privacy and security, none of these mainstream applications you talk about and barely any open source application ecosystem by comparison? I don't get it.

[ocdtrekkie]

You seem to be off on the state of Google Play Services from a real-world standpoint. Case in point: Microsoft's core apps like Outlook and Skype don't work without Google Play Services enabled, even if you find the APKs somewhere other than the Play Store to sideload them.

Microsoft's apps are specifically an example I've given of how closed Android truly is: Even Google's competitors, which have all of the same service capabilities, are essentially forced to use Google Play Services. Especially when you consider the other top HN item today about how Google now essentially requires all apps use a closed source Firebase library for push notifications.

And while yes, Google Location Services is a location provider that slots into Android, you are missing that Google has convinced app developers to call it directly, rather than using the Android location provider. This means that no alternate location provider will do: Google Location Services is hard coded into almost every location-based Android app today.

[beenBoutIT]

If you're willing to make your location known in order to take advantage of location services why wouldn't you want the very best possible service? There are complicated workarounds that can be used in place of Google's location services but none of them are anywhere near as easy to implement for the app developer or as easy to use or as accurate for the end user.

[ocdtrekkie]

GPS doesn't make your location known at all, it's receiving only. It sends information about your location to nobody, it triangulates your position from publicly broadcast signals.

And, I would much rather "make my location known" to about fifty other companies before I would want Google to have it.

[jammygit]

I did not know that and even looked it up to confirm. Thanks for mentioning it

https://www.maptoaster.com/maptoaster-topo-nz/articles/how-g...

[ocdtrekkie]

Yeah, GPS is actually insanely cool technology, and the US making it available to everyone was a real public service. Now of course, other nations are, partially for defense purposes of course, deploying similar networks as well.

And it's just out there. Usable with no subscription, no account, nothing. It's just free data.

[beenBoutIT]

Notice I didn't specifically mention GPS, although I agree that it is pretty cool. That said, GPS alone isn't capable of providing the UX that end users expect from a modern app. Fused Location is required for more accurate location information and it isn't passive like GPS.

[yellowapple]

I used CopperheadOS (without GApps) on a Nexus 6P as my daily driver for almost 2 years. Very few "mainstream" apps worked; they would loudly complain about the lack of Google Play Services, and at best would lose functionality (e.g. Slack, which apparently relies on Play Services for notifications) or at worst would crash either immediately or within a few minutes after launch (multiple reasonably-popular online dating apps had this problem).

In short, of the apps I tried that weren't distributed via F-Droid, most of them suffered from varying degrees of brokenness without Google Play Services (and these same apps work fine on my HTC One M8 and my current-daily-driver OnePlus 5T, both of which run LineageOS w/ GApps).

You're right, though, that "some Android apps work fine" is a better situation than "no Android apps work at all". Hopefully GrapheneOS can leverage that advantage well. It'd just be useful to acknowledge that it ain't all sunshine and rainbows just because it's AOSP-based; whether it's microG or something that ain't a security landmine waiting to blow off someone's leg, addressing that issue with an alternative service provider would be a game-changer, and would readily address the one issue I ever had with CopperheadOS (and - it seems - likely would still have with GrapheneOS).