[choeger]

If there shall be no growth, there may be no innovation. Essentially every product and service has to be created the same way, using the same amount if manual labor, as yesteryear.

Economical growth is not necessarily growth in consumption of resources. It is also a measure of getting more out of less.

[coldtea]

>If there shall be no growth, there may be no innovation.

That's not a problem. We already have too much shit for the good of the planet and for the good of our sanity. We should focus on quality, not innovation of more gadgetry.

Considering diseases for example, we could save hundreds of millions with spreading existing drugs and techniques, and give many years or longevity to billions with access to water and food and vaccines, etc, than what we'll "might" do with some (diminishing returns) cutting edge drug research.

We know how to cure lots of diseases people all over the world suffer from, and we don't do it. It takes a lot of hypocrisy to say we need more "growth" and "innovation" to help them.

[gmueckl]

Your focus on consumer gadgets is incredibly narrow and overlooks so many other things where innovation happens and brings true progress to the world.

Also, you can't stop human curiosity and the drive to improve and compete. There has always been progress in arts, science and technology throughout history, no matter what political or theological system reigned at that time.

[coldtea]

>Your focus on consumer gadgets is incredibly narrow and overlooks so many other things where innovation happens and brings true progress to the world.

I find the world worse than 30 years ago, so I'm doubtful about this "true progress". Our progress is just moving along without a clear goal.

>Also, you can't stop human curiosity and the drive to improve and compete.

You can cut off the economic motives for those things, which turn them from a human thing into an inhuman cut-throat compulsion.

[dractori]

In what ways is the world worse? "So why does it feel like the world is in decline? I think it is partly the nature of news coverage. Bad news arrives as drama, while good news is incremental—and not usually deemed newsworthy." http://time.com/5086870/bill-gates-guest-editor-time/

[marvin]

Making existing drugs and medical techniques more available and making water and food more accessible _is_ economic growth.

[NeedMoreTea]

I see, so there has been no new Japanese product or innovation during the 20 or 30 years of Japanese deflation? Every car is from 1990, every CD walkman still available, created with techniques of the 1990s? Are you sure about that?

I'm sorry, but nothing of what you say follows.

[yorwba]

The Japanese economy kept growing in terms of real GDP during that time: http://wolframalpha.com/input/?i=Japan+real+GDP

[NeedMoreTea]

Yet Japan's current GDP is lower than that in 1995, and has only been over 1995 level in two years.

There was plenty of innovation, new methods, product launches and new companies during the great Depression, even in the peak year of decline, and in all countries affected.

GDP and GDP growth is a decidedly modern invention anyway.

[yorwba]

It's fundamentally meaningless to compare nominal GDP between different years because of changes in the value of money. The current GDP of Japan is only nominally less than in 1995 because the values are measured on different scales.

The Great Depression would have been a better example to use because even real GDP declined drastically.

[choeger]

You have confused the order of my statement. Innovation leads to growth.

[NeedMoreTea]

"If there shall be no growth, there may be no innovation"

[choeger]

Innovation implies growth. Is that so hard to understand? No growth then demands no innovation (because innovation would lead to growth).

[RavlaAlvar]

A country that still heavily relies on paper document, still using fax machine, and its most popular internet forum has not changed its design since inception.

Yes, I would say the innovation in Japan has died out since the bubble.

[coldtea]

Spoken like a person who has never set foot in Japan. LOL.

Might as well say the same things for a country that still heavily relies on fossil fuels, still doesn't have high speed rail, still has shitty internet speeds, has crumbling roads and infrastructure, and still uses these horrible air-conditioning units, and wooden (!!!) houses, not to mention their mobile internet situation...

[bouncycastle]

Sure, the US also had a recession and it shows. But I can vouch for OP what he said about Japan. Once you step outside Tokyo/Osaka in to the smaller cities, you'll see abandoned buildings, crumbling public infrastructure and many people living off government benefits, struggling to make ends meet. Decades of recession have really taken their toll. I wouldn't call that poverty yet, but definitely there's a lot of austerity.

The beurocracy is insane. My guess is that the government crept in lots of it because it helps to keep the public servants employed. If you look in to the post office or local government ward office, there is always a whole army of office workers sending away faxes and stamping them, then stapling some papers. (They still use these weird stamps to sign their documents btw)

And yes, Japanese still use faxes, drive old taxis and generally you'll see a lot of antiqued technology that still works, but I think that's kind of charming. I especially enjoy seeing some of the old narrow guagae trains still chugging along the country side from time to time (in stark contrast to the shinkansen). Also exiting to see laser disks / VCRs / minidisks when visiting Japanese houses. Just the other day I seen an automated piano controlled by a device which seemed to be reading the data from a 3.5 inch floppy! Sometimes I can spot the odd CRT display still happily flickering, including the old vintage arcade games... The bowling alley down the block still uses what seems to be a DOS based system to manage their displays & business. Visiting a hospital is sometimes like visiting a museum... Oh, btw, got to fly in a Boeing 767 on a domestic route a few months ago, that was a pleasant surprise as I haven't been on one in years!

[coldtea]

>Sure, the US also had a recession and it shows. But I can vouch for OP what he said about Japan. Once you step outside Tokyo/Osaka in to the smaller cities, you'll see abandoned buildings, crumbling public infrastructure and many people living off government benefits, struggling to make ends meet.

I've been to Mississippi, Alabama, South Dakota, Michigan, and lots of other states, and it's probably much worse there.

[JoeSamoa]

Can confirm. W t f America.

[Nano2rad]

Innovation need not be connected to growth.

[choeger]

Once you innovate, you grow, as innovation leads to better productivity.