[Avshalom]

And there exists unskilled necessary work that armies of skilled workers can not replace.

But even beyond that there's armies of skilled necessary work that skilled workers can not replace either but seem to forget exist.

Apple doesn't exist without massive sophisticated logistical support but no one ever points out that the naval architects at Maersk or the welders at their shipyards are one piece of the process that allows any one to actually buy anything from Apple.

[kjsbfkjbf]

It would also be nice to frame "necessary" and "unnecessary".

I would think developments like saving the environment, healthcare research, improving public transportation, energy consumption, etc. are all "necessary" work. Building Uber or Twitter or Facebook? I'd lean more towards "unnecessary".

HackerNews is so close to arriving at the conclusion that most jobs (including their own prized "skilled" engineering) are worthless outside of capital accumulation. :)

[dahfizz]

> And there exists unskilled necessary work that armies of skilled workers can not replace.

I think this is false. Unskilled work is easy to teach and learn, by definition. All you need is an "army" and the unskilled work can be easily fulfilled.

[ionised]

I'm thinking you haven't done much 'unskilled labour'.

[Avshalom]

Well then it'd be an army of unskilled labor wouldn't it.

[DuskStar]

Yes, but the point was that one side could learn to do the other side's job, but not the other way around.

[Avshalom]

Only if you take as given that people doing unskilled labor are to a one doing it because they are incapable of anything else.

[dahfizz]

Nobody is arguing that unskilled laborers are incapable. We are saying that they are by definition unskilled. These skills are slow to teach and learn. Having lots of people willing to perform skilled jobs is not enough - they need the skills. The same is not true about unskilled work. Hence the comment about armies of people being able to perform unskilled labor.

[gnarlee]

I just like physical labor. I could be in some open floor plan trying to write code in some langulag designed by an unsophisticated person over the weekend while interupted by slack nonsense and by a manager who cant tie his own shoes. One coworker is an accountant and annother is an industrial designer. Im incredibly fit and my brain is reserved for private use only.

[DuskStar]

The dichotomy doesn't have to be perfect to be useful. There are certainly people who are incapable of anything else - and the US military has also pretty consistent in their statements that there are many people who are incapable of anything useful (in the military).

[Frondo]

Much, if not most, of "unskilled" work also has a lot of hidden complexity that means your productivity starts off slow and improves over time.

There's a reason capitalists have gotten us to think of some work as "unskilled," and that's so they can pay those people far less than they should be, and no one raises a stink about it.

The farm worker is an obvious example of "unskilled" labor, but if you watch a video of what these people do minute by minute, hour after hour, for the entire harvest, they are absolutely being underpaid by criminal amounts.

Yet, because we've been convinced it's "unskilled" labor, hardly anyone cares.

[Bakary]

Unless you hold some capital, you are paid according to how much your work is valued and how much of it can be supplied, not how hard your work is. They are unskilled in the sense that many other people can perform their job after some training. In aggregate the work of farming is highly valuable, but many individuals who partake in such work aren't specifically so and can be replaced easily even if their work is in fact difficult in itself.

An established rapper could be paid millions for a single mumbled line on a single song but that happens because he can export his value to millions of people who have in interest in it, whereas the ditch-digger can only rely on his labor and what it can provide in his current location.

You say hardly anyone cares, but are you willing to pay extra for the items and services that are produced by farmers and other workers? Perhaps you are, but in reality that is the stopping block that makes people stop caring, and it does have a certain cold logic to it.

[someguydave]

I'm impressed you are willing to address a serious point deeply embedded in my downvoted comment.

You are correct - the market will match labor supply with demand. Note that this also cuts both ways - sometimes the market at the "top end" of labor is also constrained. Just because someone is highly skilled does not guarantee a high salary.

[gnarlee]

Haha, you've nicely described how things work but didnt provide any sane justification for it. But ok, ill play along. How much extra are we talking about? I've just cleaned trains for about 50 000 travelers with 4 people. In my previous job we bake half a million boxes of cookies with 8 people. Farmers however, they feed truly insane numbers. If we charge you 1 cent extra for things you wouldnt complaint about it. Lets see, that would be 50000 cent extra, 500 euro split 4 was. Shit, that would double my salary!

But dont worry about it. I get that you are just that cheap. (Joking)

[Bakary]

I'd say saving money is one of the sanest justifications in the insane world we live in.

We are talking about aggregates here. I would have to pay not just you, but tens of thousands of other people that extra cent. Farmers, cleaners, attendants, cashiers, literally any of those professions that play a part in modern life. I guess I could pay only you, but it would hardly be a sane justification, would it?

Again, the problem is that your profession is valuable in aggregate but each individual has very little negotiating power. Unfortunately, if you want to double your salary, you'll have to enter a profession whose members each have a better bargaining position.

[hokus]

Its not about me but about the system as a whole of course. Likewise, it isn't about you. You are not the one paying for everything, we all do. If we optimize for lack of purchase power there will only be economy of scale for necessities.

It just struck me that we might be that we are missing the most important part of the topic.

You are not just saving whole cents left and right but in the process you will also be required to emotionally detach yourself. On the large scale the choice is really between engineering empathy vs psychopathy. If we minimize cost and maximize what people have to pay we cant be all to concerned with peoples well being.

I've had lots of other jobs, I can easily earn twice what I get now. I just one day had the rather silly realization that doing a lot of cycling to improve my shape is a lot of work. Its not work like a job, you have to push yourself until you cant do any more if you want to make progress. It seemed odd to do work without getting paid. It clearly is possible to be both productive and physically active.

You can imagine what it looks like, without a money driven thought process I do 2 times the work one could expect from an employee. You would think it is enough but that is not how the system works. There are other employees who are suppose to get more work out of me, they have no idea about the work, are really unfit and earn a lot more. My effort doesn't make cleaning cheaper or result in better cleaning. They just scale down the number of workers, get larger bonuses and the owners of the company make more money. With 2/3 already going towards the bureaucracy the 1 cent extra is really a joke.

For the people in those jobs to feel productive they have to emotionally detach themselves. I have to buy cheap products made by wage slaves who are probably much worse of, they might not be able to sustain themselves. I'm similarly forced to not overthink it.

Its not impossible for the animals I eat to see some daylight. Its not that if we abolish child labor or slavery the economy collapses. People are just making a lot of money telling that story or they need to tell themselves that in order to cope with the system.

If you can spend 1 euro extra and double a hundred peoples salary the money is the least of your concern.

[pm90]

This is a very good comment.

Some people like to do more repeatable tasks while others like to do more creative tasks and others don't want to do any tasks at all. We are told that one is better or more required than the other. If we can make a society where people can do what they want to while continuing to have a decent life (whatever "decent" means), its all good.