[maxxxxx]

One thing that bothers me is that churches still get special status. When you look at the Catholic Church it’s pretty much guaranteed that any other organization would have been shut down a long time ago if it had shown the same behavior in light of child abuse. Churches should be treated like any other organization but I think there is still a lot of reluctance to do so.

[SkyBelow]

Are you sure others wouldn't be treated the same? Penn State wasn't shut down. Many countries which continue to allow such abuse aren't overthrown. Federal agencies that engage in child abuse are allowed to keep doing so as long as they eventually catch a few bad guys by doing so. Gymnastic program continues to run. Schools often get away without even a proverbial slap on the wrist.

[maxxxxx]

they were very bad and should have been prosecuted more aggressively no doubt. But they didn’t show a repeated behavior over decades of covering up abuse or transferring guilty employees to other cities or countries. The behavior of the church was on a different level.

[SkyBelow]

It definitely was on a larger scale, but it was also by a larger organization. Given the extent of the Penn State cover up compared to the number of individuals involved, and scale their sports program to the size of the Catholic Church, I'm not so certain the numbers are that far off.

Also, much of the abuse by the Catholic Church happens in third world countries. What few studies I've seen of child abuse rates in general in those countries paint an extreme grim picture compared to other countries. I say this with full knowledge that in the US we have rates of 1 in 5 for similar forms of abuse.

[maxxxxx]

“Also, much of the abuse by the Catholic Church happens in third world countries”

Germany and Ireland are not exactly third world countries to my knowledge.

[rayiner]

Right. We didn’t shut down the US Olympic team or the IOC did we?

[coldtea]

>One thing that bothers me is that churches still get special status. When you look at the Catholic Church it’s pretty much guaranteed that any other organization would have been shut down a long time ago if it had shown the same behavior in light of child abuse.

Well, all kinds of big companies exploit child labor in sweatshops, which also kinds as abuse in my book, and nobody closes them down.

[maxxxxx]

Are you saying that if you ran a secular child care facility and found out that employees abused children, you then transferred these employees to other facilities or internationally, you would not be in jail and your child care facility would not be closed ?

[coldtea]

A church is not a child care facility. It has priests and other people that get in touch with tons of people, including but not exclusive to children.

What they do or not do is not up to the church, is up to them. The catholic church didn't tell them to abuse someone. Did a local catholic church help people wanted by the law or convicts escape the law (and also extradition)?

Now, if the church took someone accused as a child abuser (that somehow the law neglected to convict) and moved them in another country in a church position they still work with children, then sure, we can condemn the church authorities.

In the eyes of the church, even flawed people that did abuse can be accepted and transferred to positions where they cannot do such harm (e.g. in a monastery). The church was created to welcome flawed people and to help them, not to ostracize and condemn them. It's role is not even to hand them to the law, if the law doesn't ask for them (which is also why something confessed during catholic confession, even a murder, is not supposed to be revealed).

(I'm not Catholic btw, just reasoning based on their principles).

[maxxxxx]

“Now, if the church took someone accused as a child abuser (that somehow the law neglected to convict) and moved them in another country in a church position they still work with children, then sure, we can condemn the church authorities.”

This is exactly what happened many times.

[kcmastrpc]

The vast majority of churches are net positives for their communities, this applies to _all_ churches. Are you saying the local Islamic centre, or protestant church should suffer because of the corruption in the Catholic organization?

[ones_and_zeros]

May be just a personal opinion but I don't consider paying taxes on vast amounts of wealth or the land you own in support of a community to be suffering.

[harimau777]

Would requirement to pay these taxes also apply to secular non-profits?

[maxxxxx]

No. What I am saying is that the Catholic Church should have been shut down or forced to clean up their act. And other churches who do bad stuff should be treated like secular organizations who do bad stuff. Right now if you call yourself a “church” you can get away with things other organizations can’t.

[coldtea]

>Right now if you call yourself a “church” you can get away with things other organizations can’t.

Says who? Do you mean priests accused abusing people wont be taken to court/jail because they are priests? Because that happens all the time (just like with any other profession doing that).

Whether the Church advertises it or not, or tries to keep it from publicity, is something most entities would do. Companies don't advertise their members bad behavior either.

[kcmastrpc]

Tell that to the branch davidians.

[maxxxxx]

What’s your point other than being defensive?

[kcmastrpc]

My point is that you're wrong. Calling yourself a church doesn't make you immune to state/federal laws. Tax laws included.

[NickBusey]

Citation needed.

[kcmastrpc]

https://www.barna.com/research/do-churches-contribute-to-the... https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4414933/ https://www.annualreviews.org/doi/full/10.1146/annurev.publh...

[NickBusey]

The first link is the results of a survey.

The second and third links make the argument that churches increase the health of the people who participate in it.

Neither says that churches are 'net positives' for a community. A church can easily make it's members healthier, while also hurting the larger community as a whole by occupying very valuable real estate while contributing nothing back to it's non-members.

[kcmastrpc]

Though I suspect I could throw hundreds of articles/research papers/studies at you and you'd still balk and say they're slanted, unrepresentative, etc.

[maxxxxx]

What for?