[Retra]

You keep framing this conflict as though it is a purely political/value-based disagreement. It is not. When somebody denies basic facts about the world or the validity of rational methods and/or scientific reasoning, you are not simply disagreeing with me in a political sense, you are advocating for a world that is entirely arbitrary. This is what I'm saying is the double-edged knife: at best, if such people get their way, they have only provided others the justification to be cruel to them. They have not provided any argument that their opponents are wrong.

I don't deny anybody their experiences. If you trust someone who swears upon a bible, I will tell you that you are gullible, and point out that this activity neither aids in the service of justice nor pays due consideration to our mutual respect for freedom of religion. But if you say "homosexuality is a choice", you are marginalizing people's fundamental perceptions. This is not merely a difference in values, it is deception and oppression that supports one's arbitrary values, and if anyone else did the same thing, they'd be in a position to oppress and marginalize just the same.

This conflict is not simply about political disagreement -- it is about the denial of the validity of basic reasoning methods solely on the basis that the outcome is personally inconvenient.

[iamnothere]

> You keep framing this conflict as though it is a purely political/value-based disagreement. It is not. When somebody denies basic facts about the world or the validity of rational methods and/or scientific reasoning, you are not simply disagreeing with me in a political sense, you are advocating for a world that is entirely arbitrary.

Isn't that a position based on its own set of values, though? And your position would clearly be based on a different set of values.

> I don't deny anybody their experiences. If you trust someone who swears upon a bible, I will tell you that you are gullible, and point out that this activity neither aids in the service of justice nor pays due consideration to our mutual respect for freedom of religion.

Followed immediately by

> But if you say "homosexuality is a choice", you are marginalizing people's fundamental perceptions.

[Emphasis added]

Look, there's nothing wrong with having values and staking out a firm position based on those values. Claiming that one's own values-based position is distinct and special and is fundamentally different than other values-based positions, however, is merely dogma.

[Retra]

And if everything is dogma, then we must simply fight to the death. I am arguing it is not, precisely because that is not the outcome I want to occur. You can disagree -- but you do not improve anything by doing so.

As I've been saying, if you argue that our positions are merely equal, you do not change my mind, you simply cause me to stop trying to justify my position. (You've justified it for me!) That is unacceptable, and betrays the entire reason we're talking about this.

[iamnothere]

> And if everything is dogma, then we must simply fight to the death.

Only if everyone feels they have to "win".

It is possible to force a draw or stalemate, in perpetuity. That's what I'm arguing for. The only alternative is to force your opponents to comply, globally, through overwhelming oppression.

[Retra]

Well, that's just a different set of values.

[iamnothere]

Yep, it's my personal set of values and it's what I contribute towards. Others can and do disagree, I'm aware of that.