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by rorymarinich 5665 days ago
Very interesting article! Worthy of my upvote. But at the same time I don't at all buy into its premise.

Literally every field I have even a passing interest in has got people at the top of it who express interest in multiple fields at once. In the web-related world there's Shaun Inman, who goes back and forth between music, web design, and creating video games. Or there's Ze Frank, who goes back and forth between writing and designing tools and music and video comedy and I don't know what else. In music there are a lot of people who specialize in many, many different things at once — either different types of music (multiple instruments, or multiple performance styles, or music production) — or actively in different fields at once. Peter Brotzmann, one of the best free jazz saxophonists, is also a graphic designer who's designed all of his albums to date. Tom Waits is a musician who acts and writes on the side. Auteur directors tend to be involved in five or six different fields at once: James Cameron is a masterful set/costume designer; David Lynch handles the audio production for his movies; and writes some of the music for it. Stand-up comic Louis CK writes, stars in, directs, and edits his show Louie, which is to some degree insane.

The problem with looking at the Internet for polymaths of the same caliber of Carl Djerassi is that the Internet generation is too young right now. Ze Frank, who is in some ways the grandfather of the modern Internet creative movement, is only thirty-eight years old. The real Internet generation, of the people who literally never existed in a world where the World Wide Web didn't, was born in 1990. They're twenty years old. They're me.

I can assure you as somebody who's closer to that generation than most of the users on that site: We're going to see an explosion of creativity the likes of which we haven't seen in decades, if ever. The kids I know in high school are busy writing, drawing, making music, arguing philosophy, arguing economics, doing pretty much everything and doing it all at once. Give it thirty years and I think you'll be flabbergasted at what we produce.

When I was eighteen I'd already published a novel, directed a play, written and co-performed a song, co-created said song's music video, performed and co-wrote a Harry Potter dub, wrote multiple essays, and designed a number of web sites. A friend of mine who's a year younger was keeping a political/economic blog and engaging in discussions pretty much everywhere. Yet another friend is a hypnotist, writer, and web designer who I might be making a documentary about this coming summer. The guy I live with, twenty-one, is a talented actor who's also written for the Colbert Report, interviewed celebrities, and in his free time sells tickets. Is that polymath enough for you?

4 comments

When I was eighteen I'd already published a novel, directed a play, written and co-performed a song, co-created said song's music video, performed and co-wrote a Harry Potter dub, wrote multiple essays, and designed a number of web sites

I hate to burst your bubble, but that does not make you a polymath. If your novel were published by a profit-minded company, sold well, and entered the public consciousness, if your essays were instead new mathematical proofs or chemistry research, if your song were a symphony which displayed a deep understanding of musical theory, and if your design of a number of web sites were instead the development of a new encryption algorithm, you'd qualify as a polymath.

As it is, your 18-year-old self and your present friends may well be precocious and intelligent, but your interests are not notably broad and your contributions to society have been standard. The friend who blogs and argues politics, or the other who acts - what is "poly" about their "math"? Those are narrow focuses.

Your efforts are broader, but you're in the beginning stages of creative production... and unless you allow others to determine when your works are satisfactory instead of engaging in self-publishing, you'll have a hard time progressing beyond those beginning stages. Self-publishing is fine for blogging, but there's a reason they're called "Vanity Presses."

Completely agreed! I would be astonished if anybody my age was sophisticated/mature enough to have novel thoughts about one subject, let alone multiple. Particularly not in an era when public understanding of most of the arts is 30-40 years behind what we'd call the cutting edge right now. Maybe people specializing in the Internet, because it's so immature, but even then the closest I think it comes is somebody like Blake Ross and Firefox, and I don't think that's quite brilliant enough to count. (It is very popular, though.)

But it's easier nowadays to educate yourself than it ever has been before. That was partly my point: More people are teaching themselves about more things than has been possible in the past. Certainly if I'd been born 10 years earlier, I wouldn't be nearly as well-off as I am now (though this theoretical 30-year-old me would be wiser than the 20-year-old actual me, of course). People are better able to connect to one another, and to test out their ideas, and to experience others' ideas, now that we have this monstrous network that lets you access anything at any time. When I was 13 I was attempting to debate Communist philosophy on a game design forum; I doubt I'd have been doing that without the Internet.

Don't worry. I have no illusions about my prowess. I'm only this year starting to work on things that I think say something meaningful. Maybe five or ten years from now I'll be a legitimate expert in a field or two. Even that would be faster than expected.

(I fail to see, though, how self-publishing somehow prevents me from interacting with others or letting them comment on my work. When my novel was published in 2007, self-publishing let me distribute it freely and thousands of people did — more than would have bought it, I'm sure. Many of those people, including some of the community here, decided to directly respond to it; loads of them, I assure you, were critical. Similarly, I've launched web sites on Hacker News and learned a lot from the critical feedback; my essays and the subsequent comments were similarly devastating.

If anything, I'd say that self-publishing makes it even easier for others to rip me to shreds. It's a self-perpetuating game; the better I get, the more people see my work, and the more informed the subsequent criticism is. I've gone from a community of dozens to a community of tens of thousands. I'm a masochist. I love nothing more than hearing people tell me why I should eat shit and die, especially when they're right.)

Then what was your point in responding to this post in the first place? I've just said that you're not a polymath, your friends are not polymaths, and your present courses will not lead to being polymaths. Easier access to education may well be allowing you to advance in your chosen fields quickly, but you've still chosen a narrow set of fields.

I'm all for writing for public consumption. I just wouldn't list a few precocious kids doing so as much of an accomplishment.

I don't think the article would consider any of the people you listed polymaths. One of the article's criterion for being a polymath is that you have interests in diverse fields. A musician who can play several different instruments isn't showing much in the way of diversity. Neither is James Cameron, nor Louis CK, because the examples you cited all are tied together very naturally, and I would argue that being a great director probably means you _have_ to be a good set/costume designer too. And you can't just be really good to be considered a polymath--you have to be an expert. Thomas Young, from the article, showed that light was a wave in addition to a particle, _and_ contributed immensely to linguistics through helping to crack the Rosetta Stone. Making significant contributions or developments like Young's these days isn't possible. With the article's stringent criteria, I'd agree--what polymaths we have today aren't great compares to the ones we used to have, and they're just going to keep getting worse because it's hard to be an expert in anything intellectual nowadays, and it'll only get worse.
I might agree re: Louis CK. I wouldn't agree re: James Cameron. Set/costume design is an entirely different art form from directing; I was actually very impressed when I read about his early work designing for films before he became a director. Saying the two are similar arts would be like saying that, I don't know, working with Photoshop and Illustrator is close to being a marble sculptor.

I'd also cite, say, Ricky Gervais as an instance of a person who is pushing the boundaries of multiple fields at once. His directorial style inspired a dozen other single-camera television comedies (including Arrested Development, which I think is the king sitcom); his acting style and his "theater of embarrassment" similarly begat actors like Michael Cera, and a wide stripe of other comic actors who play off deadpan silence. His writing style, meanwhile, especially for the original Office and for Extras which followed it, was incredibly bleak and devastating, and simultaneously very heartwarming. He had a sympathy for his characters which very few TV shows had. I think his particular blend really set a trend for a decade of television that followed.

I think the problem is how we define "expert". If you mean somebody who is definitively at the top of a field, then, yes, you're right, we don't have many people at the tops of multiple fields at once. That's because it's hard: We have more competitive fields now than we've ever had before. More experts in every single thing. But I'd argue that we probably have just as many people operating on that high a plain of expertise in multiple areas. It's just that when you've got so many, it becomes very, very hard to notice every single one, and so the bar for "exemplary" gets incredibly high. It's a bias in the data that returns more dismal-looking results.

Addendum 1: Unfortunately I can't name many people in the sciences, because I'm as far from a science person as you get. I'd be convinced they're there, though.

Addendum 2: I don't just mean a musician who plays multiple instruments. I mean a musician who plays multiple aesthetic styles with radically different philosophies. There are guitarists who can play funk music and flamenco and free jazz and modern classical. If you know anything about the cultures and styles of any of those four, you know that the difference between playing each isn't just technical ability. It literally requires playing the instrument in ways that are anathema to any of the others.

You might argue that just because all four styles are classified as "music", they are too tied together to count as diverse; I'd argue that you're wrong. They're about as similar to each other as physics are to linguistics, which is to say that while there are similarities, they're simply too far apart to be umbrella'd together without doing each a great disservice.

Sure, set/costume design is different from directing, but they fall under the same umbrella of having an interest in making movies. James Cameron is not a polymath for the same reason someone who gets a Nobel in physics and chemistry is not a polymath. If someone gets a Nobel in literature and physics, that's being a polymath. Your music example also isn't great. I, and several other people, know how to do a wide variety of dances--square, Irish folk dancing, salsa, waltz, hip hop, lyrical, and so on. It does not make us polymaths. The differences within a discipline are pretty big, true, but the difference between disciplines supersedes those. Someone who programs and dances is jumping a much greater distance than someone who goes from ballet to hip hop.

You seem like a talented and energetic person, so kudos to you, and this discussion is ultimately about semantics, which is uninteresting. I still think you misunderstand what breed of intellectual the article is talking about, though.

I agree entirely. While I've specialized (and spent the vast majority of my time) in reverse-engineering, I also write fiction, do sound engineering, (used to) draw, have recently started playing the drums, etc. Am I particularly great at any of these? Not really -- at least not yet -- but that's ok.

As an aside, we've all heard the standard "jack of all trades" quote, but everyone always leaves out the last part of it, which I feel is most important, if only because of the way I can relate to it: Jack of all trades, master of none, though oftentimes better than master of one.

No. It's not polymath enough because you haven't acquired the subtle art of impressing other people without coming off like someone who needs to brag about themselves or making already insecure people feel more insecure about themselves.

Without proper social-skills you are just a douche in lab coat/pocket-protector/drama club/hipster enclave. The true modern polymath, IMO are Frank Abagnale, Larry Ellison and Craig Ventor.

It's particularly amusing to see someone spout off on HN of all places, with the sheer number of CEOs, CTOs, and successful founders (http://samsnyder.com/2010/11/19/successful-people-on-hacker-... ). Not to forget successful authors (cstross) and someone like cperciva whose accomplishments would require pagination.

None of whom feel the need to reference their position or achievements unless providing clarification, context, or disclaimers.

I blame the self-esteem generation thing, and Christopher Paolini's parents.
I wasn't aware that listing a set of things I've done counts as impressing people. It's not like I go around just announcing accomplishments to crowds hoping they'll cheer me or toast me or blow me.

We're discussing an article that opens up by mentioning one man's prowess in multiple areas. The article uses this man as a springboard to ask if there are similarly talented people today. My response was that I think there are, and that while the current generation of Internet People is still young, there's a hell of a lot of promise there, pretty much wherever you look.

I'm sorry if you're insecure about yourself; I didn't mean to shove a list in your face in an attempt to make you feel unhappy. I know firsthand the shallow satisfaction that comes from doing things just to fill out a resume; happiness comes from friendship and personal curiosities. When I was 17 I thought writing a novel would make me happy; it didn't.

I don't know much about Ellison and Ventor. Would you really call Abagnale a polymath? He's a fascinating man, but I don't know him well enough to say that his activities are diverse enough to be called polymath. He was a con man; now he works in security. What else has he done?

Don't feel defensive. I think it's great that you are putting yourself in public and getting feedback. The truth is most people think that they are the shit but yet they are so insecure to express so in public. So they feel like Unibomber on the inside but are too chicken-shit to do actually like the Unibomber.

But it's important to take criticism well. Like playing music, it's jarring to hear your own voice or playing on records but it's the only way to get feedback and improve. What you are doing is to turn my criticism of you against me and it doesn't reflect poorly on me but shows off your bruised ego. You are free to think for yourself and then dismiss my criticism but don't turn it into the "idealistic you" vs. the materialistic world; that's descending into the Unibomber rabbit-hole.

And by the way, this is coming from someone who went through a phase of attempting to write the Great American Novel, exploring the liberal arts/music/philosophy/bohemian living, whatever you want to call it. Yeah, it was a very educational experience.

Oops! No! I'm sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting you were insecure. I think I misinterpreted when you said "making already insecure people feel more insecure about themselves". I worried you were referring to yourself.

If I could go back and edit my original post, I would, but the edit window closed. I legitimately didn't mean that to be dickwaving. And I tried to say that I don't think I'm a polymath. I'm too young and too stupid. Maybe one day. Anyway, I didn't write it that well and it came off as me trying to look like an Internet Superhero. My apologies.

I go to an art school right now and boy oh boy does the cockiness and one-man-against-the-universe-ing get old. I agree; the only way to really do interesting things is to constantly self-doubt and push to expand. My favorite artists/people in general are the ones who to this day insist on trying to be better than they are.

>I wasn't aware that listing a set of things I've done counts as impressing people

this is what he said.

your statement is essentially 'i think i am a polymath and so are my friends'

>My response was that I think there are, and that while the current generation of Internet People is still young, there's a hell of a lot of promise there

man, when did i get so old that i'm cynical of generational pride? every generation feels this way, at the edge of the new and exciting.

> man, when did i get so old that i'm cynical of generational pride? every generation feels this way, at the edge of the new and exciting.

Hahaha. Aren't they? I mean, the thirtysomethings and late twentysomethings that I know do CRAZY cool shit. I hope when I'm that old I'm as cool as them. I mean, I love my generation, but I love the generation right before me too, and I'm really looking forward to what the kids who're 10 right now are doing when they're my age.

> I mean, the thirtysomethings and late twentysomethings that I know do CRAZY cool shit

Such as?