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by jesssse 2593 days ago
Endless enablement will worsen the environment. Criminals should be charged with crimes, not receive free services.
3 comments

Many people take a more pragmatic, evidence-based approach that leads to a better outcome.

In the interests of not being passive-aggressive, I'm saying that your absolutist approach is a bad idea and in many cases makes things worse.

I do recognise that there are people who prefer a worse outcome, because they want to see people directly punished, and also people who prefer a worse overall outcome if it makes their lives any better at all (effectively offload all the bad outcome onto other people).

At no point will we be able to accomodate every desperate person who shows up in a top-tier city with a good apartment there quickly. Supply, density, and affordable housing programs can all be drastically increased, but not enough for the literal billions of people in the world who would take you up on that. Even the Soviets had to assign people to live in less desirable places.

Letting everything else fall apart (libraries, parks, transit, sidewalks, bike paths, etc) as we hold out for this to change doesn't strike me as pragmatism.

I wonder what evidence could be found about my proposed solution of "law enforcement".

Currently, criminals are allowed to live on public pathways and in neighborhood parks.

It's normal to see mountains of feces and needles and water bottle caps.

It's outrageous and absolutely a failure of government.

I*m working from memory here, but evidence generally finds that having an actual safety net and giving folks homes to live in works. Making sure folks have mental health care works. Even with folks that insist on trying to stay on the streets ... it seems simply taking them home enough time works.

You could also build centers with toilet facilities for people to live outside if they choose - like campsites, only nicer.

If the people are criminals, the solution is to have better re-integration programs and focus much of the criminal justice system on helping folks instead of being cruel and punishing folks.

You are correct, however, that it is outrageous and an absolute failure of government.

Being poor isn’t a crime. Many homeless people never commit crimes.

Your tough-guy jingoism also just ignores all the evidence that shows that just punishing people at the lowest end of society simply doesn’t work. Send them to jail (which costs more than college) and they don’t get out and say “oh, now I have the skills to get my life back in order”.

Being homeless is terribly uncomfortable and punishing already. Nobody who operates on your simplistic sticks-and-no-carrots approach would ever be homeless in the first place.

Your solution, which has unfortunately become the status quo, is to allow criminals to freely operate in camps in plain view.

I am correct for wanting criminals held responsible for their crimes.

You want thieves and rapists to freely live on my public pathways.

Some homeless I've met say they moved to Portland because the camping laws are not enforced.

Every illegal camper is breaking the law. The local government decided not to enforce the law.

If you want people to be arrested for theft and rape, do that. Merely sleeping without a roof over one’s head should never be illegal, and I applaud anyone who fights against it being so, at any level.
~ You want thieves and rapists to freely live on my public pathways.

Those are some pretty extreme accusations to make at an umbrella group term such as "Homeless".

If your point of not prosecuting illegal campers is true, how does this relate to "Rapists and Thieves" not facing usual criminal proceedings?

In a personal side note, in many jurisdictions your blanket statements could be seen as incendiary towards a very vulnerable community.

The rape and thievery would lessen if camping laws were enforced. The vagrants would be pinched for trespass and illegal camping and drugs and whatever else.

I have reconsidered my nomenclature, and because many of these "homeless" have homes, I am going to substitute the word vagrant.

We have a person who has no other place to sleep. Right now we turn a blind eye to their sleeping in a park, and spend some time and money cleaning up afterwards[0]. Instead you would like to throw this person into a prison where we will spend even more time and money taking care of them from sunup to sunup? I don't see that as an effective solution to any of the problems at hand.

[0]:Which I agree, it would be better we didn't have to.

If they consume 100 square feet of land that would cost $1500 per square foot, the value is $150,000. (normal Manhattan prices, which should be less than the prime spots taken by these tents) It is unimproved, pushing the rent down, but small, pushing the rent up. Calling those even, a month of rent should be about $1,000.

That comes to something like $33 per day, or $12,000 per year. A possible solution presents itself: sell camping permits.