[ctulek]

Your argument and supporting comments below are not new arguments against democracy. Democracies were always attacked both from outside and inside. No system is perfect but democracy has one big advantage: it is the only system that can learn from its mistakes and improve itself. For other systems, mistakes result in people suffering or dying in masses.

[bilbo0s]

>For other systems, mistakes result in people suffering or dying in masses...

Well, just trying to be evenhanded here, but even for democracies, people will suffer and die in masses due to mistakes. I'm American, and in the US we had slavery. Which I believe qualifies as a mistake for which people suffered and died in masses. (Though in some parts of the US that certainly may not be the consensus view.)

In my opinion, the great virtue of any democracy is not that it can correct its mistakes. (Indeed, oftentimes many democratic governments will not correct their mistakes.) Rather the great virtue of democracy is that a democratic people always get exactly the government they deserve. For good or for ill.

[pjc50]

Does rather raise the distinction between "democracy" in which only some people have the vote and a "liberal democracy" which widens the franchise as far as possible, includes guarantees on basic rights of minorities against majoritarianism, and so on.

By that reckoning, America wasn't a democracy until 1964.

[luckylion]

You could argue that modern liberal democracies just hide the ugly parts, not necessarily end them.

Whether you have your neighbors working 16 hour shifts in your factory or you have people in Bangladesh work 16 hour shifts in your factory doesn't really make a large difference: you're still making people work 16 hour shifts in your factory, only different people.

[AFascistWorld]

Democracy is high maintenance, it needs the people to be vigilant all the time, ultimately democracy is the people instead of a fancy term, as you can see the outcomes of democracies are hardly the same.

So when the people just want more income, easier life and minimal seemingly irrelevant political hassle, either caused by their history or indoctrination, the "China Model" can be very attractive.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/05/world/africa/ethiopia-gov...

[ctulek]

I don’t know how “minimal political hassle” and “China Model” can be used in the same sentence. Looks like censorship is working pretty well.

Sorry, but your argument does not make sense. People want all of the things you mentioned in all societies.

People who want to live in a modern democracy do not experience lots of political fights because they want it. It is because a modern democracy makes it all visible to all members of democracy that there are so many different voices, right or wrong. Other political systems try to hide that fact by either killing or censoring. And eventually all of them collapse.

Any current issues of modern democracies are “the current issues” that need to be solved. It is naive to say that there are systems that solve all problems. Not even close. I just prefer my system to not hide current problems in my society, so I can work on them.

[AFascistWorld]

I'm not advocating and peddling the "China Model", I'm only speaking my understanding dealing with it. More often than not countries are controlled by the priviledged, and they can more easily shaped people' mind now.

When you pitch democracy to Chinese, the vast majority of them will rebut your every arguement with their pragmatic "narrative", they only want a tiny part of it or simply don't. Their upper class tour western countries and see dilapitated infrastruture, "people being poor", streets not safe, cities old "like villages", they feel proud.

And the system essentially hijacked their wealth, it will be too costly to change, care only about how much money made and what to buy and nothing else.

Until the "China Model" suddenly collapses, it will be shiny to some.

[Swenrekcah]

Robustness against mistakes comes from dispersion of power, it is not necessary for a democracy. A genocide can happen in a democratic system, but in that event people theoretically have some way of reigning in the powers that be.

[ctulek]

That is true. I used the term democracy too broadly. Dispersion of power is crucial for the health and longevity of a democracy.