[Althorion]

> include only elements that have a somewhat settled, "obvious", lowest-common-denominator semantics

Can you, from the top of your head, tell me what irregular modified cylindrical Bessel functions are and the last time you needed to use one? And yet, they were included in the standard library in C++17: https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/numeric/special_math/cyl_b...

[colanderman]

I can't, but I bet they have a standard and well-accepted definition in the mathematical community.

In fact, pretty much any real-valued mathematical function passes the test.

The interface is settled, almost by definition since C++ functions are inspired by mathematical functions: pass in arguments, return result. Use range/domain exceptions or NaN for reporting such errors.

The semantics are obvious: compute the named function.

The interface is lowest-common-denominator: include float, double, and long double overloads.

In fact, the same or similar interface is used in almost every language I've encountered. To contrast, the same is absolutely not true of e.g. a database module. I don't think I've ever seen two alike, disagreeing over even basic things such as whether the cursor or the transaction is the basic unit of interaction.

[Althorion]

There’s nearly a limitless amount of standard and well-defined functions with a single usage, like those. There’s hardly a point in implementing them in the standard library and C++ is the only language that I’m aware of that has those.

If the goal was to create a specialized library for solving differential equations, those would be handy there. But if not, even if you tried implementing everything that you could potentially think of to implement, there are hundreds of things that are orders of magnitude more useful to have and equally well-defined and standardized—even if we limit ourselves to mathematics alone, I’d much rather see basic constants like π or e included, or quaternions, or arbitrary precision integers, or decimal numbers… or dozens upon dozens of other things before that.

But mainly, I find it impossible to maintain the claim that any general-usage language, like C++, that implements such niche functions is trying to keep its standard library small and ‘include only elements that have a somewhat settled, "obvious", lowest-common-denominator semantics’.

[colanderman]

Then you're not disagreeing with me, because those functions pass my test as I demonstrated above.

Why do these functions bother you so much? It can't be namespace pollution; they're under std::. It can't be that you disagree with their interface or semantics, since by your own admission you don't even know what they are.

You named some other features, such as quaternions, that you think would be better for implementors to spend their time on, but surely you can imagine someone like yourself who is tired of having to define the Bessel functions every time they start a new project, and can't imagine why the C++ committee saw fit to include something so useless and obscure as quaternions before getting to Bessel functions.

[Althorion]

> Then you're not disagreeing with me, because those functions pass my test as I demonstrated above.

Yeah. I must have misunderstood your definition of ‘obvious’—I though you meant ‘an obvious inclusion to the standard library’, not ‘having an obvious definition’. The definition is obvious, why they should be in a standard library is not.

> […] since by your own admission you don't even know what they are

I mostly do—I studied mathematics. Or, to be more precise, I learned about them, then never used them in programming, had to remind myself what they were and even after that, I don’t find them useful enough to warrant an inclusion to the standard library. Thus, since they were included, I think that’s a good evidence of C++ committee not trying to keep its standard library concise.

> You named some other features, such as quaternions, that you think would be better for implementors to spend their time on, but surely you can imagine someone like yourself who is tired of having to define the Bessel functions every time they start a new project, and can't imagine why the C++ committee saw fit to include something so useless and obscure as quaternions before getting to Bessel functions.

The thing is, I can’t. If you use them, you want a better support for solving differential equations than C++ offers anyway, so it’s more of a ‘OK, I have this small part already implemented, but I still have to find ways of doing the rest 95%’. This, plus the fact that I’m quite certain that people using C++ to do 3D geometry outnumber people using it for solving differential equations by a few orders of magnitude—a cursory glance at GitHub showed me that the only projects in C++ that mention it are… implementations of a standard library (and forks upon forks of those).

My problems with this is that C++ is now in a very strange place—it implements some very high level, niche features, bloating the language and its implementations (the size of glibc is a practical problem) while still lacking many others, that seem much more ‘obvious’ (i.e. ‘if given an unknown language, I would be much less surprised to find them included in its standard library). In the end, I have a language that both has annoyingly big standard library and heavily relies on other, non-standard ones for quite a lot of things.

[majewsky]

> C++ is the only language that I’m aware of that has those.

https://golang.org/pkg/math/#J0