[tokyodude]

it may be my Western sensibilities but I find those small apartments dehumanizing. Like living in a prison cell or some kind of distopian sci-fi novel.

note I've lived in Tokyo on and over the last 21 years. I've lived in college dorm sized apartments and visited friends in smaller. I get it's partly culture but isn't there some limit? Would living in a capsule hotel be ok to some? Is it 100% personal preference or is there some limit?

[design-of-homes]

"Like living in a prison cell or some kind of distopian sci-fi novel."

I also find such small dwellings unpleasant. Small flats can be well designed, but these apartments take things too far.

The designers have recognised two features to amplify the sense of space: the double-height space and the large windows to flood the flats with natural light.

In fact, one aspect of more modern apartment design which is instantly recognisable no matter which country you live in: the long, narrow rectangular shape of apartments which allow more flats to be crammed into a plot of land. Compare these two identical studio apartments.

https://imgur.com/FyhYi0j

I'd be interested to hear opinions from anyone who prefers the studio apartment with windows at the narrow end (and why).

As an aside, it's interesting that you mentioned these apartments as something that might come from an "dystopian sci-fi novel". In J.G. Ballard’s science fiction novel,"Billenium" the population of the earth reaches 20 billion and 95% of the population resides in cities. Residential floor area per person is limited to 4m2.

In 2010, that inspired Waseda university in Japan to run a competition with the premise: could you live with another person in a home that measured just 15 square metres? The original competition website is long gone, but luckily, archive.org has a copy of the winning entries:

http://web.archive.org/web/20110630063557/http://www.all-was...

[SECProto]

> I'd be interested to hear opinions from anyone who prefers the studio apartment with windows at the narrow end (and why).

I've lived in both shapes (technically, they were 1 bedrooms, but had the same difference in layout). I much preferred the one with windows at the narrow end. It allowed me to actually use the walls for stuff - couch against one wall, TV opposite without having massive glare and my back to the window. Still allowed lots of natural light in.

The one advantage of the long layout was it allowed better airflow from a window at one end to a window at the other. But it also allowed way too much sunlight in during the summer, meaning that ventilation was less effective at cooling the space.

[njepa]

> I'd be interested to hear opinions from anyone who prefers the studio apartment with windows at the narrow end (and why).

I am not sure about "prefers", but both glare and heat can be a problem. To a large extent it is trying to "polish a turd". In small spaces a little extra space, a single wall or other improvements make a huge difference.

I lived in shared accommodations, barracks, dorm rooms, serviced apartments and whatnot. The equation mostly doesn't change. You need like five square meters for every "feature".

[Slippery_John]

I prefer the windows at the narrow end. Gives me more useable wall space. In fact my current apartment is much like your image (though with a bedroom on the side) and my previous was more like one with windows on the long side.

I've got a lot of books and board games that I keep in shelves, and so the much increased wall space allows me to place them more comfortably. I'm not interfering with light sources and I can secure the shelves to the wall so they don't fall down if my dog runs into them. It also makes it easier to keep the place cool in the summer since there's far less surface area to worry about.

[alistairSH]

My son lives in a "junior suite" - basically a classic end-windowed studio, but with a wall blocking the bed from the living area. Worst of both worlds.

[rudolph9]

I think people tend to equate minimalism (i.e. only having things that bring value to your life) with living in a smaller home. Of course you could like in a larger space without owning tons of stuff, people just have a bad habit of buying way more things than actually use and the extra space allows for that.

Personally, I went from owned a multiple bedroom condo with fair amount to things to only the things that would fit in a Subaru crosstrek. Following our weedding, my wife and I spent three months touring the country rock climbing. Frankly, the living conditions we're awful! It was cold and wet and crowded and traveling in the fall you are left with the dilemma what do you do when the sun goes down and you are literately sleeping in a space smaller than most coffins and you have to move all your stuff to the front seats in order to lay down in the back. However, it afforded us the privilege of visiting every state West of the Mississippi and the Canadian Rockies. I was an amazing trip that I wouldn't trade the world for! (side note: spending literally every moment with someone for 3 months strait in a very confined living space while constantly dealing with every day problems neither of you have encountered before is a really great way to break in a relationship) That said we now live in a 650 sq/ft apartment and life is a lot more comfortable.

[thfuran]

>side note: spending literally every moment with someone for 3 months strait in a very confined living space while constantly dealing with every day problems neither of you have encountered before is a really great way to break in a relationship

That or just break it.

[IkmoIkmo]

Yeah 9m2 is pretty crazy...

If you ask me, I'd be a proponent of limiting to above 15m2 units with shared spaces, and possibly age-limited.

In the Netherlands we have homes which are for youth only, can only rent them until age 27. I think such an age limit would make sense for such small units. The idea being that the image and culture of these buildings are focused on instilling the notion that these spaces are temporary.

I think it's fine you live in a 15m2 unit at age 20 as a student. But if you want to do that at age 40, it's super likely that it's not by choice. And that's not something we ought to necessarily allow.

The successful concepts I've seen typically have high-quality washer/dryers separate. A large communal kitchen to supplement a small private kitchen. A communal hangout space.

And finally, a private event room you can rent, e.g. 10 times a year, to say host parties, music, poetry, debates etc. If you've got say 360 days out of the year and a morning, noon and evening slot, you've basically got about 1000 slots to fill each year. If you share such a space with 25 units, each unit could rent the room almost every month.

None of this is perfect, particularly the age-limit is hard to enforce, and you start to touch on the gov vs personal-freedom debate. But I think the above minimum guidelines would be the least bad solution that finds a reasonable balance.

It really depends on the city though. If there's a ton of housing shortage and you've got people forced into 3-hour commutes, illegal dwellings, homelessness, >60% rent/income etc, aspects of which you see for example in Manilla, it makes sense to allow 15m2 units. In a city where there's no such housing shortage, I think it makes sense to set the minimum legal standard a bit higher.

[zkms]

> But if you want to do that at age 40, it's super likely that it's not by choice. And that's not something we ought to necessarily allow

If you mandate luxury in housing, everyone who cannot afford that level of luxury will go without housing -- or will end up in illegal and unsafe sublets with abusive landlords, which is far worse than an apartment of one's own that happens to have a floor area that is below your idea of luxury.

[IkmoIkmo]

Replace 'luxury' by 'standards', among which size, but also fire hazard standards, noise standards, pollution, accessibility, height etc, and you can see why it's silly to take this libertarian idea to the extreme.

You have to find a balance. That balance will differ from city to city. But to mandate some minimum living standard makes a lot of sense. Breaking the law is not free of consequences, illegality is not the norm, it's a strong disincentive for anyone to engage in a housing practice which we as a society deem unacceptable. A line has to be drawn somewhere. From there you can, as a government, implement programs to help people meet those standards, and provide sufficient resources to do so.

Whether you think the line should be at 3m2, or 15m2, or 50m2, you can argue. What society deems acceptable is up for debate. I fully agree there. But the notion no mandated 'luxury', or minimum standard, should be set, and for government to just allow anything, without standards, because hey, otherwise you might create a situation where almost everyone lives according to an acceptable standard, except for a few edge cases temporarily breaking the standard illegally... I think that's silly.

[antepodius]

The point is that by setting regulations like this, you're going to increase homelessness.

[IkmoIkmo]

You realise you're talking about building regulations that already exist?

I take it then, you're of the opinion we should have no regulations at all?

[tokyodude]

Japan has a similar setup but without the age restriction. they are called Social Apartments.

https://www.social-apartment.com/eng

I've considered living in one but the prices are not any lower and sometimes even higher than renting my own apartment. Maybe if I knew they had a community organizer that planned activities most days I'd consider paying the premium.

Some apparently have a theme like "musicians" so you have people the jam with and they have practice rooms.

[IkmoIkmo]

Yeah I run into a similar story here, small modern units aren't necessarily cheaper, unfortunately.

Normally you'd expect this to generate a lot of turnover because there's a decent chance you can find a better deal on a $/m2 basis within a year or so. Which is tricky for normal landlords, because you need to organise viewings and find another tenant, which leads to temporary vacancy and lost income.

But these hotel-room like units tend to be so so uniform and modern, that, like hotels, you can easily get them booked via an online system without even having to organise viewing days or whatever, or better, generate a waiting list online of tens of people who're willing to move into one the moment one becomes available.

We have small apartments that aren't age-limited here, too, but they start (based on building regulations) at 18m2. The 'really' small units of 15m2 are allowed only for student rentals, which are typically linked to an age (27) or university enrolment requirement, or both.

[njepa]

The sensible limit is around 25 square meters / 250 square feet. Any smaller and you start losing function exponentially.

The amount of organizations, businesses and cultural things started from couches, kitchen tables or hobby rooms are plenty. Certainly not something to be underestimated as a benefit to society.

[ghaff]

Something about that size seems like pretty much the bare minimum. My point of reference is a hotel I often stay at in NY which makes something of a virtue of its small "cabins." They're 170 sq. ft. and the minimally separated bathroom is about as small as you could make it. There's a bed and a minimal desk (maybe a few square feet) and desk chair. No closet, no kitchen or even room for a mini-refrigerator or hotplate, etc. Add 80 sq. ft., make the bed a futon, and you start to be a place where one person could almost live out of a suitcase but it would still be pretty minimal for any length of time.

[KozmoNau7]

I lived just fine on 16m² for 2½ years, and I had plenty of space for everything I needed to do. I could have 3-4 people over in comfort, any more and we just used the common room or a nearby cafe.

[njepa]

I have lived in smaller as well. But the point is that somewhere around 25 square meters you start taking away functional space. There is a big difference between a 120 cm wide bed and a 70 cm wide bed, or a 90 cm cook top and a 45 cm cook top, or 140 cm wide desk and a 70 cm wide desk. But the same isn't necessarily true as you go up. It is nice to have a bigger kitchen, but the utility diminishes. Or at least per unit of space. While just having a hot plate is likely to decrease ones likelihood of e.g. eating healthy.

[mcguire]

You'll find comments here from people claiming to enjoy living in their cars while working for startups in SF.

People are different. And they can convince themselves of just about anything.

[wodenokoto]

> is there some limit

You have over 4000 people living in Internet cafes ...

https://www.japantimes.co.jp/news/2018/01/29/national/social...

[bluGill]

Tokyo is a city. There are lots of things to do. If you are never at home except to sleep why do you need more than a bed? You don't live in the apartment, you sleep there. Your waking hours are spent out in the city (work, shopping, parks, night clubs, concerts...)

[nradov]

That sounds like a really miserable way to live.

[bluGill]

To some people it is. I'm with you, but different folks like different things. I'm not about to judge them.

[badpun]

Are there really people like this? Isn't this absolutely exhausting in the mid and long term?

[KozmoNau7]

The apartments shown in the article would probably be on the "too small" end of the scale for me, living there by myself.

I lived for a couple of years in a 16m² apartment, and with a bit of clever placement of furniture, it was quite comfortable. It definitely forced me to be more critical about buying new things, considering the space it would take up.

The bathroom was private, which I something I would insist on. Washing machines and dryers were shared, which is fine, especially since they were good-quality industrial units.

My only real annoyance was that the kitchen was just a small nook in the corner, with a fridge, a sink and two hotplates. Cooking something like bacon would stink up the whole apartment, as it was impossible to separate the cooking area from the living area. There was no oven and hardly any usable working surface, which quickly becomes annoying if you like to cook. I made do with a cheap toaster oven, but I would prefer not to have to do that again.

Small living is very possible, even in some comfort. I would recommend most people try it out at some point in their lives.