[_qwfv]

This article focuses a lot on large, well curated gardens, but I'm an engineer who found a lot of solace and safety in managing my own garden. (As someone who has faced burnout and anxiety from work before.)

There's something about planning, planting, and then caring for a garden that appeals to my engineer brain. It's an exercise in organization and planning that scales from "throw seeds at dirt" to "these plants will attract bees near these other plants, these plants will repel insects. These will bloom early, these bloom late".

You can grow flowers, you can grow vegetables which you can turn into cooked, canned, or pickled food.

There's something about putting food on a plate that came from your yard, from your care. There's something about sitting in a green (or red, or blue, or yellow, etc.) space that you made.

I'm a sucker for games like Minecraft, Factorio, etc. Raising a garden is like a slow motion version of those things. It's a fusion of creative and scientific/engineering brains. It's great.

[agumonkey]

> putting food on a plate that came from your yard, from your care.

Can't second this enough. This connection between soil (direct environment) to your gut is, as stupid as it seems, a marvellous thing.[1]

> There's something about sitting in a green (or red, or blue, or yellow, etc.) space that you made.

Few time I walk in a forest (semi-wild) I feel like a forest is like a big nest. Enough roof, enough sunlight, enough green things aronud. It feels very safe most of the time[0].

I'll add something, wood is so superb.. as a material too. Using it as construction (small or large) is a great pleasure. The soft sound, the soft touch, the pale color.. when seen with a bit of chemist eye, you appreciate it a lot.

ps: on volcanic side of caribean islands, the nature is also overwhelmingly present. Giving you a lot of opportunities to be around a tiny stream of clear water surrounded by plants. You know people listening to rainy sonuds to relax. It was an amplified version of this. It made my mind trip in a weird way, as if flowing water became my time source and made me forget about the world.

[0] there are times where your spidey senses will wake up though, which is also super surprising because it's not like fear or stress. It's N times more acute senses and focus. Almost a pleasure.. especially considering how dull a modern daily life can make you feel.

[1] society forgot that because of modern times social delegation but it should be a human right. Today you may not have enough to do your own food growing. If you fall of the city tree you'll starve.

[jniedrauer]

> there are times where your spidey senses will wake up though, which is also super surprising because it's not like fear or stress. It's N times more acute senses and focus. Almost a pleasure.. especially considering how dull a modern daily life can make you feel.

After about 3 weeks into a multi thousand mile hike, senses that I didn't even realize I had started to wake up. I could sense animals in the woods around me. I couldn't say if this was sound, smell, or something else, but I just knew they were there. Sometimes I woke up in the middle of the night, immediately knowing that something was going after my food. I also began to sense water sources from very long distances. This was probably a combination of smell and recognizing terrain patterns. Weather was another big one. I gained an intuitive sense for the storm patterns in the mountains, and I could see them changing with the terrain as I moved.

It took half a decade for the positive side effects of that hike to wear off.

[agumonkey]

Makes me want to walk in the country side alone. In France there's almost no real danger (except the eventual hunter).

Anyways it's odd how our world evolved toward comfort and disconnecting us from such important part of us.

[jniedrauer]

Someday if I've got a few months to spare, I'd love to hitchhike around Europe. Seems like a pretty cool place to wander.

[gehwartzen]

It certainly is and in much of Europe it's a legal right:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam

[agumonkey]

the whole germany and its surroundings is also choke full of bike lane (according to https://old.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/comments/bdvap6/cycling_lan...)

[Judgmentality]

> After about 3 weeks into a multi thousand mile hike

How far and how long did you hike for? I just can't imagine walking through the woods for so many months. Also where did you hike?

[jniedrauer]

I winter hiked the Appalachian trail, starting in Amicalola Falls on January 1st. I ran out of money near Harpers Ferry, so I made it about 1100 miles.

I highly recommend doing this type of thing at least once in your life. I dreamed about using computers at night for about the first 3 weeks, and then my brain reverted to a more primitive state and I never missed tech again or felt bored for the entire time I was out there. It's very freeing.

Although if you're going to winter thru hike, winter hiking experience and good equipment is essential. A few sections ended up borderline mountaineering, which in retrospect was very foolish to attempt alone and with no experience. I did not know what I was getting into, and I got extraordinarily lucky a few times while learning how to survive outside during the winter through trial and error. Also had to spend most of the money I saved on better equipment, which is why I had to cut my hike short.

[dpc59]

Look at the appalachian and pacific crest trails. Its really hard in occidental countries to be more than 50km from a city, so you always have places to buy food.

[lowdose]

You must have come across some very delicate mushrooms while making your way.

[BrandonMarc]

> This connection between soil to your gut is a marvelous thing.

Indeed, some research is pointing to the beneficial effects on your microbiome, too. The microscopic critters in the soil where you live may be very well co-evolved to live there, and there's a body of reasoning which says since you live there, too, they can be - sometimes - be very helpful to your own body.

(not that you should eat dirt, of course)

[agumonkey]

Fair point although I only had the psychological link from feeling able to understand nature (aka most of the planet) to sustain your life (feeding but also whatever use you can make with plants, roots, wood etc).

[badpun]

People often just buy soil for their gardens in the local megastore. That soil is often dried peat and has nothing to do with local environment of your garden.

[hanniabu]

> There's something about planning, planting, and then caring for a garden that appeals to my engineer brain

Agreed, and it's also not a stressful task in itself for some reason. I'm somebody that's over analytical and tends to succumb to analysis paralysis, but when it comes to garden work I never experience that. (possibly because I know plants are resilient and it's hard to mess up?)

[sf_rob]

I come to gardening with the same attitude. Basically if it doesn't grow well in my temperate climate then I just grow something else next year. Tomatoes, mint, and squash all grow like weeds and are super easy, peppers are finicky, and leafy greens are a battle against aphids.

That said, I know plenty of other hobby gardeners who treat their gardens as an exercise in optimization. Heck, I even know one engineer with a grid of (legal) marijuana plants who varies the nutrient composition of the soil in each planter to play with his quality/yield.

[Cerium]

I have had good luck in the battle against aphids on my kale by spraying them with a (1:1) mixture of 70% rubbing alcohol and water with a small amount of dish soap (I use about one sponge load worth in a full spray bottle).

[nanomonkey]

I have a similar recipe, only I add in a tablespoon or so of neem oil.

[vram22]

Neem is great. We use it a lot in India. It's one of what some people informally call super-plants or wonder-plants, some others being banana, coconut, and bamboo. All have various uses, for different parts of the plant, not just the obvious ones, e.g. in the case of banana, people in India eat the flowers and stems too, made into curries).

Edit: Also garlic, ha ha. What would we do without it, for both food and (informal) medical uses.

[Cactus2018]

I've had success against bugs using liquid Castile soap (Dr Bronner) in a recycled "foaming spray bottle" (Clorox Foamer)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Insecticidal_soap

[hanniabu]

Just get a container of lady bugs, they're natural predators

[jrumbut]

Yeah it really breaks through the paralysis because once you get the seeds wet the plants are coming on their own schedule whether you're ready or not.

Plants are definitely resilient. I like experimenting with high densities/small pots on the very unlikely chance I find some plants with synergy (or just lack of space).

In 2017 this resulted in tiny (but tasty!) jalapenos (about a quarter of the normal size) growing off a plant that had sat on the windowsill doing nothing for 2 years.

If anyone has advice on plant pairings/symbiosis I would love to hear it!

[vram22]

>Plants are definitely resilient. I like experimenting with high densities/small pots on the very unlikely chance I find some plants with synergy (or just lack of space).

>In 2017 this resulted in tiny (but tasty!) jalapenos (about a quarter of the normal size) growing off a plant that had sat on the windowsill doing nothing for 2 years.

Very interesting. Must try that out some time.

>If anyone has advice on plant pairings/symbiosis I would love to hear it!

You probably know this, but nitrogen fixation via legumes is one such symbiosis, of a kind. You can plant non-legumes interspersed with legumes. The native North American "Three Sisters" concept [1] is an example of that - they discovered that corn, beans and squash work well in symbiosis - beans being the legume.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Sisters_(agriculture)

Edit: In fact, with the Three Sisters, it is not a two-way symbiosis - it is three-way:

>The three crops benefit from each other. The maize provides a structure for the beans to climb, eliminating the need for poles. The beans provide the nitrogen to the soil that the other plants use, and the squash spreads along the ground, blocking the sunlight, helping prevent the establishment of weeds. The squash leaves also act as a "living mulch", creating a microclimate to retain moisture in the soil, and the prickly hairs of the vine deter pests. Corn, beans, and squash contain complex carbohydrates, essential fatty acids and all nine essential amino acids, allowing most Native American tribes to thrive on a plant-based diet.[7]

[BasicObject]

Just to add to what has been said here. The three sisters is not the only form of companion planting you can do. There are many. My favorite other examples also include: Strawberries planted next to blueberries and carrots planted next to lettuce. These may not provide as complete nutritional value as the three sisters but they are easy other options.

[vram22]

Good points, thanks. I will try carrot and lettuce.

[BasicObject]

Make sure they grow well in your hardiness zone! Just in case people aren't aware of them :-)

[jrumbut]

I was aware of nitrogen fixing in theory but was wholly unaware of the maize/beans/squash combo. That's 100% the sort of thing I'm after although I would prefer it on a container friendly scale.

[vram22]

Good point. Not sure if it would work at that small a scale. You might have to look around more (on and off the Net); it could help. Some searching through organic gardening sites, Rodale Press mags/sites, permaculture sites, etc., may help.

Vaguely remember seeing some such points mentioned (about companion planting, plant-plant symbiosis examples for gardening, etc.) a while ago, but did not save those particular ones, unfortunately, although I do often save web pages of interest to my PC.

Just remembered / thought of another point: Just because beans and corn may not work at your small scale (tiny pots), does not mean that nitrogen fixation may not work at all (or other forms of symbiosis). I remember reading somewhere that there are many plants and trees in the legume family ( Fabaceae (or Leguminosae)) [1], and they range from small herbs to trees. So some googling for small leguminous plants may help. For example, clover (which can be small) is probably a legume. Also, a person I know - and who has a background in farming - once told me that there are many wild species that are legumes, and one way (not guaranteed to work always) to detect them, is that they have trifoliate leaves.

Just googled:

  legumes have trifoliate leaves

and it seems to indicate that what he said is partly right, at least.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legume

[SuoDuanDao]

My family came across a fun synergy last summer - garden giants (aka wine caps, or probably any table mushroom) and squash. The squash likes to grow into the wood chip beds of the table mushrooms, and the mushrooms like the cool, moist climate in the shadow of the squash leaves.

[Pfhreak]

The only thing that stresses me is when my plants fail and I don't know why.

[dekhn]

I moved to "easier" plants and was a lot happier. Once I mastered growing an ivy, I felt more comfortable. For me the general problem is that plants just stop growing because they've exhausted the nutrients in the soil, and then I bungle the fertilizer (too much) and the plant dies.

[jrumbut]

Edit: I just saw your other post, this one in isolation made me think you had tried gardening once and given up.

That just happens sometimes!

Hard to explain failures are often caused by one or more of over watering, pests (including at the root level), too little soil, or bad soil PH. Symptoms of pests include visible bugs, mold, eggs, or webs (check under the leaves) or a weird smell. PH problems sometimes manifest as discolored leaves.

Also like animals plants have very different levels of vitality, there is strength in numbers!

If you want to try again let me recommend herbs and leaf vegetables. Mint, basil, arugula, lettuce, and mustard greens grow fast and mint in particular is somewhat invasive and hard to stop it gets going.

It can be tough to grow a tomato that looks like the ones at the grocery store without experience and more time and care. There's an art to it.

[perfmode]

i’ve had great results growing basil. I had a plant we named Harry, who thrived in Palo Alto despite erratic care. Harry would drink as much water as we could give it and would be visibly wilted when thirsty. Otherwise, incredibly happy sitting in the sun and producing leaves.

[vram22]

>i’ve had great results growing basil. I had a plant we named Harry,

Wow, really cool idea, naming individual plants. Much better than the pet rock concept ;) Going to give it a try, next time I plant something. Related, as a kid doing organic gardening, I once read a book called Talk To Your Plants. Just searched for it:

https://www.amazon.com/Talk-Your-Plants-Jerry-Baker/dp/B000H...

That's the one, I'm pretty sure. There is also this one which I have not read:

https://www.amazon.com/Talk-Your-Plants-Will-Eisner/dp/08973...

[Pfhreak]

I'm in the Pacific Northwest, and I've had mixed experience with basil. I'm trying to grow it hydroponically at home now, and it seems to be going pretty well.

[jrumbut]

Yeah basil really takes well to that kind of setup and has the ability, given sufficient light, to grow so vigorously that it creates a wide band of acceptable fertilizer levels which can be a real challenge.

[fillskills]

Happy to help out. When you are ready to plant the next one we will be happy to help

[benj111]

Hail storms just after you've planted something (normally none hardy) out.

That's stressful!

[sershe]

As an engineer who also really loves the outdoors (forests, mountains, etc.), I find gardening to be one the most stressful activities I've ever tried.

For example, I had several trees planted for privacy, and I cannot even handle watering them. There's no good recipe to follow, no fixed amount of water, just a vague instruction to dig a hole into the root ball and make sure the soil is "moist" but not "wet" or "dry". Of course, that is just like a customer saying he wants a design that "pops but is not too flashy" - a nightmare. On top of that, there's one watering system for 7 trees, and various holes next to them have different-feeling soil; and often, different holes right next to each other by the same tree have radically different levels of moisture. Even the rain doesn't helps because arborvitae are very dense and while 2 feet from the root ball it may be almost swampy, under the tree still looks dry and I've no idea whether to water or not water them. And that's before we get to fertilizer, pests, etc. Ugh. And ofc unlike e.g. burning a cake, if the trees do die I'll actually feel bad.

It's basically an engineering equivalent of a customer from hell who is super vague, changes specs all the time, and you have multiple bosses who disagree; and if you screw up the project people suffer.

I already wish I just had a taller fence built, cause I'll have to hire someone to deal with this no doubt.

They really should come up with bio-engineered "robot" trees that have an instruction manual with specific quantities of water and stuff to be applied at specific intervals...

[hutzlibu]

Your post amused me a lot ...

Anyway, since you love outdoors, you know there are trees on this earth, who handles growing without human interaction?

And they only have natural rain and groundwater. But yes they do not grow everywhere but only at a specific ground. So most of them die at young age, who were unlucky.

And with gardening you try to engineer the right conditions, but because of the complexity, you just fail so a lot of times. There are basic rules to follow and the rest is experience. So just relax about the thought that things can die because of you. That just will happen a lot with gardening.

And with your arborvitae, well for them it is mostly the soil that matters. Imagine them growing in the wild ... and then try to simulate that as much as possible. So don't panic if the ground moisture is not allways perfect, it allmost never is in the wild. The trees grow nevertheless, unless the ground is really unsuitable. And then you can adjust a bit. But mostly your trees need a lot of water it seems. And then they will grow..

[nextos]

I also like to have my own garden, or at least a small communal garden that is harmoniously integrated into the property.

I was living in Copenhagen for a few years, and I was really impressed by how well designed some small blocks of flats were in order to get them integrated into wild gardens and little forests, e.g. [1,2]. Apparently a trend that started with Scandinavian mid-century architecture.

During Spring and Summer, from many living rooms you could not see neighboring blocks because there was an absolutely amazing small forest in between. With Summer breeze, you would only hear leaves moving. Absolutely amazing to work from home in such a property. Silent and very pleasant views.

Trees had been carefully selected and/or flats placed appropriately so that during darker months they would not give any shade. And these were mid-class flats I could rent with a (generous) MSc scholarship, nothing outrageously expensive. Good urban design makes a difference.

[1] https://nybolig.mindworking.eu/resources/shops/N270179/cases...

[2] https://nybolig.mindworking.eu/resources/shops/N270179/cases...

[pcmaffey]

I'd guess that you would love permaculture [1], if you're not already familiar with it. It's a set of design principles for organizing and planning gardens that oozes a certain creative engineering and wisdom of natural things.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permaculture

[Pfhreak]

Yep! I try to practice permaculture as much as possible. There's always more to do, but much of our garden is designed to be both aesthetically pleasing and edible, and we try to recycle back into it and support native insects where we can.

[hinkley]

The big secret with permaculture that I wish wasn't a secret: There's more things you can do, but there are fewer things you have to do right now. If you're home and it's sunny, you're mowing the lawn, and you can't stop in the middle.

If you wanna prune shrubs, chop and drop weeds, or plant bushes until the sun sets, it starts raining, or GoT comes on, you just can. Doing lawncare with thunderclouds passing overhead is just bad juju.

[vram22]

Not only for gardens, although the term originated from "permanent agriculture". From your link, and from what I've heard from people who do it.

[SonicSoul]

in the book Digital Minimalism Cal Newport does devote a chapter to this type of 'Leisure' activity. he makes a case that humans are evolved to interact with physical world and such activity is a lot more satisfying/relaxing than the simulated kind (digital world). its well worth a read and making me re-consider my evenings. Even though i avoid TV i still spend "productive" time on a computer. working on a garden would be an excellent candidate!

[billmalarky]

>I'm a sucker for games like Minecraft, Factorio, etc. Raising a garden is like a slow motion version of those things. It's a fusion of creative and scientific/engineering brains. It's great.

I can't believe you didn't mention Stardew Valley. It is a smash hit game and your comment is basically a short essay as to why it is so popular and enjoyable.

[someone7x]

The more I've learned about gardening the less fun I find the abstraction of gardening games.

I think it's mainly about how important soil health is for growing plants and how poorly this concept seems to be modeled in games.

[Pfhreak]

Oh yeah, I love Stardew Valley. And it's an obvious miss in a thread about gardening.

[wefarrell]

I love the uncertainty of it. There are so many things that can go wrong - weather, pests, misunderstanding a plants needs. Too many factors out of your control. At the end of the day you have to accept that nature will take its own course and appreciate it.

[mcguire]

...beavers. I've lost two trees to beavers.

I hope the jerks enjoyed it.

[vram22]

Wow. Have read about what they do, but thought it was only in nature / forested / non-urban areas. You live in such an area, or did they enter a citified area?

[mcguire]

I live in a rural area on the Tennessee River. It's a little more rural than suburban, but not very far out of town. Came out one day and the tree stump (about 1 1/2" around) was cut off at an angle a couple of inches above the ground, sharp enough to puncture a lawn mower tire. That tree was just gone. (The other was a little older and sprouted volunteers, so it's trying to grow back.)

[vram22]

It's great to live and/or be near water bodies. I love lakes and rivers and the sea. I've not lived very near any, at least for extended periods, but have been to them a fair amount. Also, I once lived for a month or so in a beach hut (bamboo) about 10 feet from the ocean's edge, in Goa. It took about 6 seconds to open the door of my hut and walk to the water's edge. The roaring of the waves at night, from so close (more loud at night than in the day, because of relatively less ambient sound) was initially a little scary, but I got used to it, and liked it after that. It kind of lulls you to sleep. Great experience.

[vram22]

I've read as a kid about beavers cutting down trees for their dams and lodges (IIRC the terms). Amazing stuff. Indicates intelligence. Don't know if there are any closely similar animals elsewhere in the world, in terms of their building using trees.

[js2]

> There's something about planning, planting, and then caring for a garden that appeals to my engineer brain.

Boy you sound like someone who would really enjoy square foot gardening. I doubt I'm telling you anything you don't know, but here's a link for those unfamiliar:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Square_foot_gardening

[Pfhreak]

I do my own take on this in my containers. It's less rigidly defined, but it's the same basic idea.

[rlue]

I remember watching a TED talk by Dan Gilbert in which he claimed that there was research showing that tending houseplants improved mood (and extended lifespans, I think?) for elderly nursing home residents, but also that the longevity benefits were reversed after the houseplants were taken away?

I'm very fuzzy on the details, but in retrospect, it sounds like a bit of a cruel experiment to conduct.

[hinkley]

You're getting it twice there, because repetitive tasks can have their own soothing effect, especially on people whose minds tend to 'race'.

Weeding, pruning, harvesting become a meditation, after a fashion. That's probably what Grandpa was doing out there futzing with the lawn every weekend. I never got that knack with lawncare, but flowerbeds, sure.

[lux]

Totally agree. My business partner started gardening from her balcony and blogging about the challenges, which then got several of us into it as well. I now have five raised beds, more than a dozen pots, some vertical planters made from eaves, and a good plant that feels like something out of Little Shop of Horrors.

It's such a connective thing for me now. Stress relief, feeling control over my food source, talking to neighbours more often, and thinking about food sources. Highly recommended gardening to anyone looking for a great and fairly easy hobby.

[rboyd]

Well put! I really like the streamlining/automation aspect of the gardening too (drip lines, etc), and the journaling/tracking year over year.

Factorio is next in my queue. Cities: Skylines is my current go to.

[a012]

Drip lines are cool and helpful when you aren't there all the time. But getting your hands dirty and watering yourself is some kinds of meditation. I feel so relaxing and refreshing when holding garden hose pouring water for all the plants in the weekend.

[Pfhreak]

That's what I like about gardening. You can approach it as an exercise in automation, or not. Both are available and widely supported. Whatever works for you!

[xvf22]

My balcony becomes an urban farm every summer complete with custom PCB giving me moisture monitoring and individual watering of 8 plants. Not necessary but definitely calming.

[malandrew]

Can you suggest the best resources you've found for learning about gardening?

[Pfhreak]

Start with a small plot and grow some peas or beans. They are easy to plant and grow, and usually produce a ton of food.

I LOVE "Food Grown Right, In Your Backyard: A Beginner's Guide to Growing Crops at Home". It's approachable, it talks about growing vegetables primarily, but it also talks about how to set up a bed, how to fertilize, etc. It's aimed at beginners and it is full of pictures.

The important part is that you can basically experiment with a small plot one year, and see what you like. I built one raised bed. Then the year later, I added two more. Now I have 6 raised beds plus a whole bunch of beds on the ground. I started with carrots and peas. Now I grow basically all the fruits and veggies. :D

After I got comfortable with my veggies, I started looking into French potager gardens and companion planting flowers in my vegetables. I pawed through a bunch of books and didn't find one I loved, but found a lot of blogs and things to search through.

[ihaveajob]

If you're in the SF bay area, I strongly recommend Golden Gate Gardening [https://www.amazon.com/Golden-Gate-Gardening-3rd-Year-Round/...] because it's approachable if you read it from the beginning, but comprehensive and highly detailed in the various aspects of this diverse region. Nothing more frustrating than growing a mandarin tree only to find out that the fruit will likely not be too sweet!

[KingFelix]

agreed, no time crunch, lots of problems to solve/create, it is a wonderful thing

[atomi]

Not only that but horticulture is prime for automation. It's a lot of fun.

Check out https://github.com/OpenSprinkler/OpenSprinkler-Firmware which you can easily run off an RPi Zero W and a cheap 5v relay.

My favorite is plant propagation which is especially fun and challenging to scale in a small indoor space.