[cf498]

I am not a Chinese dissident. China is not going around the globe putting people in execution vans there. So my personal consequences of Chinese surveillance are rather limited. The possible impact on my life is in no way comparable to the possible impact of the same by the US. I would like to not be mistook landing on no-fly lists, being banned from international banking as well as from making business with any company.

[CharlesColeman]

> I am not a Chinese dissident....So my personal consequences of Chinese surveillance are rather limited.

I would recommend that you think of yourself as a dissident, including as a foreign dissident, even if you aren't actually one. I think that attitude can be a great source of moral guidance and perspective.

[cf498]

Which has nothing to do with the question of what would be preferable to European citizens, US surveillance or Chinese surveillance. The possible effects are rather clear cut, which is why I dont understand why anyone would views this differently. I understand that for a lot of people this becomes a moral question quickly, but thats not whats up to debate here. Its not about the justifications for surveillance programs but their direct effect on people living in Europe. I also have less to worry about from North Korean surveillance, simply because I am not a north Korean. We dont have that luxus with the US, despite not being a US citizen. Or more fittingly because we are not US citizens.

[CharlesColeman]

> Which has nothing to do with the question of what would be preferable to European citizens, US surveillance or Chinese surveillance.

> Its not about the justifications for surveillance programs but their direct effect on people living in Europe.

That's a bizarre question and pretty self-centered. Also, as a European, if you're trying to somehow choose between one or the other, wouldn't you want to most strongly oppose the surveillance run by the regime that's least aligned to European/Western values?

[cf498]

Its the post we are responding to though. And the notion, that if you could chose, Europeans would prefer to be spied on by the US is absurd. My posts are about nothing more. The threat analysis for most Europeans is rather straight forward on what will have a larger potential to have a larger negative impact on your live.

[CharlesColeman]

> The threat analysis for most Europeans is rather straight forward on what will have a larger potential to have a larger negative impact on your live.

Please expound on that threat analysis.

[cf498]

I did it a bit further up. Like you can ask the toddlers who ended up on no fly lists, mistakes happen. And if you are not a US citizen, you dont have any legal recourse. And if you end up with a case of mistaken identity, you can not just be put on no fly lists, but be banned from international banking as well as having any company doing business in the US be banned from engaging in any transactions with you. Which is basically every company. Not even mentioning the worst cases of illegal renditions and being put in torture black sites as well as drone killings if you went on holiday in the wrong region of the world.

And even if you assume a perfectly working surveillance system, there are still people being targeted for legal behavior, like being employed by someone who has business relations with Iran or something trivial like having your PayPal account canceled for transactions to Cuba.

Where as with china, what exactly is the possible personal impact for non Chinese citizens? Having my bosses IP stolen? Not being allowed to travel to China?