[BucketSort]

> but inequality probably hurts society overall.

The innovative pressure produced by inequality is something that should not be unappreciated. Although it's a sore spot for many, so is any type of discipline or system that is necessarily harsh for it to work. HOWEVER, inequality that is so stark and dramatic hurts society. My position is that everyone should have the right to the basic necessities of life (as FDR was a proponent of [1]).

As a person from the lower classes, I'm fine that people live like kings and I don't. If I really want that life, I should have to work very very hard for it. What I'm not cool with and despise is having the fear of homelessness and hunger held over my head so that I am forced to dance for my rich masters. In an age of exorbitant wealth and excess, this is getting ridiculous. At the rate we are going, in the future we will have people owning planets with colonies of robots and still have starving people. At what point do we say enough is enough?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Freedoms

[TheOperator]

>As a person from the lower classes, I'm fine that people live like kings and I don't

>What I'm not cool with and despise is having the fear of homelessness and hunger held over my head so that I am forced to dance for my rich masters.

Being lower-class is a big part of my identity due to being the poorest kid in my class that I was aware of. Yet I grew up in a relatively well-off neighbourhood in a well-off country. I never went hungry. I never went cold. I even got a few luxeries like modern video game systems from well to do relatives. When I see the "We are the 99%" rhetoric it strikes me how much people focus on the few people richer than then and how little they focus on the many people poorer than them. I've looked at the numbers and in a world with perfect equality westeners would be poorer. There seems to be a lot of self-serving self-victimization with a lot of the fuck the rich rhetoric.

Yet I know that even if you aren't suffering grinding poverty being RELATIVELY poor on a local basis is really hurtful and isolating. It destroys you socially. You can't do what your peers can do and have to stay home. It makes you less attractive to the opposite sex. It hurts your quality of life. It limits your ability to change this. It makes it so merit becomes less and less connected to success.

I know that a lot of people even poorer than me are suffering. I know the people most able to afford to address these problems and those least needing for money are the wealthiest in society. I also don't see the growth of inequality as sustainable. We're at gilded age levels of inequality and things are still getting worse. It's going to lead to more and more social unrest.

[idonotknowwhy]

> Yet I know that even if you aren't suffering grinding poverty being RELATIVELY poor on a local basis is really hurtful and isolating. It destroys you socially. You can't do what your peers can do and have to stay home.

This resonates with me. I tried explaining this to a relatively new friend recently and he told me "That's your white privilege talking".

People don't seem to understand that suffering is relative, and if you grow up poorer than your peers, it's still hurtful.

No I have to decide which will be better for my kids, the oldest of which is reaching school age. Bottom of a middleclass area or top of a lower class area.

[turtlecloud]

Def agree. Dave chapelle said it best. If you grew up on the hood where everyone was broke, you didn’t feel as bad cuz you didn’t know any better.

But being a lower middle class kid in a rich neighborhood, even if you we’re better off than the kids in the hood, everyday at school you are constantly reminded of how poor you feel, more so than the people in the hood.

[codyb]

I don’t understand. You were saying you didn’t have as much money as your nearest peers and it was hurting your social life and making you insecure, and they handwaved it away as privilege??

[XaoDaoCaoCao]

The replacement of class politics with bloated Imperial multi-ethnic racial politics.

Often cheered by those who have never experienced actual hardship ie Homelessness, precarity mindset of being low income, being rejected at interviews because you have to use old clothes, social isolation of the lower classes, etc

Or to put it more crassly, the poor of America aren't "sexy". The poor of 3rd world nations? HOT. People who individalize their suffering by adopting "identities" (gender, sexual, racial)? HOT. The couple sleeping in front of the boutique candy store? TOTALLY NOT

[idonotknowwhy]

Yep, "white privilege" to be precise, and that was the first time I'd heard the term. I was pretty surprised to hear it considering he knew I only had 1 parent growing up.

[meko]

Your friend is not wrong but they were still being toolish about it. You mentioned your struggle, your problem; and instead of trying to commiserate they basically said "it could be worse". Know how you feel, most people can't relate with my life experiences either so in the past when trying to discuss them I received similar levels of dismissal. Something I realized though is that it goes both ways: in the moment they said " that's your privilege talking", you had a window to turn the conversation back to them, to ask about their experiences. Of course that direction for a convo isn't always appropriate, or it may be asked too awkwardly to get a thoughtful response, but I will mention those times I shut up and opened my ears were some that broadened my perspective the most.

[BucketSort]

> Yet I know that even if you aren't suffering grinding poverty being RELATIVELY poor on a local basis is really hurtful and isolating. It destroys you socially. You can't do what your peers can do and have to stay home. It makes you less attractive to the opposite sex. It hurts your quality of life. It limits your ability to change this. It makes it so merit becomes less and less connected to success.

I understand and this is a good point.

I have further anecdotes from being friends with an African American kid who lived in the government housing area in my town -- which I visited on occasion. Even though these people lived in decent houses, with all their basic needs being met by the state, there was a dramatic feeling of depression and anger there. What did their future look like? They didn't feel like they had any way to work within the system, so they turned to degenerate preoccupations. When you feel like the system "isn't fair," you are inclined to say fuck the system. This impacts African American's the most because not only do they see the system "isn't fair" today, but that it was really not fair in the past. The fact that it has improved dramatically isn't a saving grace for many.

I understand some of the problems of inequality, but I can't imagine it ever being different. Equality is in line with my morality, but I'm not a dreamer. Humans aren't angels. I do believe we could win the fight for securing the basic necessities of life as a right, but equality is a utopian fantasy. There is a certain level of suffering we must accept as being an unavoidable consequence of our nature.

[meko]

Indeed. It becomes a self fulfilling prophecy when the most disadvantaged members of society have no other means to advance other than illicit activities and then those statistics are turned around and continued to be used against them. It's depressing that plenty of people fall for it, citing "the numbers" as evidence for thier hateful claims.

[darawk]

I agree so much with this. I really find the focus on inequality weird and sort of childish. Complaining about inequality strikes me mostly as an attempt to sublimate envy into a politically palatable narrative. What we really ought to focus on is not reducing "inequality", by pulling the ceiling down...but raising the minimum standard of living by pulling the floor up. I think UBI is an excellent way of doing that, but there are many.

[jdavis703]

There’s a huge difference between the “I’m a young single college grad making $50k a year and billionaires are the reason I’m poor” narrative and literally stepping over potentially dead unsheltered people on your way to the office of a multi-billion dollar company. How can we make sure that people don’t have to sleep on the street and suffer from poor healthcare? Because currently income inequality is creating developing country, slum-like conditions in the US.

[BucketSort]

> How can we make sure that people don’t have to sleep on the street and suffer from poor healthcare?

The first step is a cultural change. I believe the ball is in the court of the writers, musicians, philosophers, poets, celebrities ... people involved with shaping culture. To give an example of how how toxic our culture has become, I'll recount something that just happened 30 minutes ago.

There's this nice old lady near my hackerspace who operates a small food cart. Not many people visit her because where she's allowed to be is laughably secluded, so she mainly sits there all day waiting for customers. Another member of the hackerspace said he was going to Wallgreens to get a candy bar and asked if anyone else wanted something.

I said: "Hey, there's the food cart lady who has that stuff and she's just a 1 minute walk away, instead of the Wallgreens which is 10 minutes away."

Upon hearing this, another member grunted with disapproval. I asked what was up.

He said: "She sold me a disgusting sandwich, you shouldn't support a business that is run that poorly."

I replied: "She's an old lady! Did you give her any feedback on the sandwich, maybe she can improve?"

Him: "A business run like that is beyond help."

I'm still shocked how this person couldn't even see past the business into the person. This is a huge problem I see: we forget we are dealing with people because we classify them simply as objects of utility. Our consumerist abstractions are causing us to be quite nasty to others.

[darawk]

> There’s a huge difference between the “I’m a young single college grad making $50k a year and billionaires are the reason I’m poor” narrative and literally stepping over potentially dead unsheltered people on your way to the office of a multi-billion dollar company. How can we make sure that people don’t have to sleep on the street and suffer from poor healthcare? Because currently income inequality is creating developing country, slum-like conditions in the US.

How, exactly is income-inequality creating those conditions? It seems to me like the issue you're describing is one of a floor that is too low. Which is exactly what I said.

[tomohawk]

When people focus on inequality, are they doing so because they love the poor and want to do something for them, or because they hate/envy the rich? Too often, it's the latter.

Instead of UBI, a negative income tax is a much better approach. There's a lot of info out there about it, but here's a nice intro:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xtpgkX588nM

[koolba]

In some ways we already have that with the earned income tax credit: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earned_income_tax_credit

[darawk]

Ya, the EITC is a negative income tax. But it should probably be expanded, it's a great policy.

[dragonwriter]

> Ya, the EITC is a negative income tax

EITC is a hybrid normal and inverse means-tested, and also behavior (by source of income) tested, welfare program managed through the tax system that was loosely inspired by negative income tax, but it is not actually a negative income tax.

[darawk]

Aka a form of negative income tax.

[aaomidi]

Unfortunately the issue with inequality is that it breeds more inequality.

Someone born into the .1% will continue to get richer and richer by literally not doing anything while others on different parts of the spectrum aren't in a position like that and many have negative assets.

If the playing ground was equal at birth and people were differentiated based on their hardwork no one would complain. The issue is the playing ground is not level and every day it gets more and more skewed.

[darawk]

> Someone born into the .1% will continue to get richer and richer by literally not doing anything while others on different parts of the spectrum aren't in a position like that and many have negative assets.

What you're talking about here is wealth mobility. And I think we should definitely be talking about policies to promote that. Especially in the upwards direction.

[aaomidi]

We can't talk about this without talking about the inequality in wealth which is the biggest factor in economy mobility unfortunately.

[darawk]

> We can't talk about this without talking about the inequality in wealth which is the biggest factor in economy mobility unfortunately.

That's an interesting theory. How does that work, exactly, though? How does wealth inequality squash income mobility? And if income mobility is the real goal, why are we talking about inequality, and not directly talking about mobility?

[aaomidi]

Honestly, I'm not an economist. But from what I've gathered from reading various opinions on this matter is that economic inequality is the main source of weak economic mobility in developed countries - especially in countries that don't have safety nets.

The theory essentially is that strong economic mobility requires some "base" value of economic power.

If you're born into a family with negative assets, thousands of dollars in credit card debt, bad neighborhood you're essentially starting your life with negative economic mobility and turning that positive is extremely difficult given the circumstances and in many cases you stay poor. For example, the effects of redlining is still seen to this day after nearly half a century has passed.

On the other end, if you're born into a family with a strong economic background and proper investments. You're already starting your life with positive economic mobility.

The way to think about it is, if you're on the bottom of the graph in terms of assets, you're going to be going further and further down (until where is the question?) and if you're on the top of the graph you're going to keep going up.

College, various inheritance taxes, social safety nets, etc etc try to offset these differences by essentially making the top of the graph a little "weaker" and boosting the bottom of the graph. But is it working?

[threatofrain]

If the playing ground began equal we’d still end up with power begets power. People might just feel better about one inequality over another.

Meritocracy and egalitarianism are in hot tension. Capitalism and democracy are in similar tension.

[pitaj]

The vast majority of wealthy families lose it within three generations.

Growing your wealth requires taking on risk: your investments may not turn out well.

[scandox]

Where does that info come from? I went to school with people whose wealth can be traced back more than 20 generations. They didn't seem to getting poorer.

[robocat]

"The richest families in Florence in 1427 are still the richest families in Florence"

https://qz.com/694340/the-richest-families-in-florence-in-14...

[lprubin]

Here is some data showing 70% by the second generation and 90% by the third:

https://www.google.com/amp/amp.timeinc.net/time/money/392530...

Perhaps you just met some of the exceptions.

[monocasa]

Do you have data that isn't a blatant ad campaign consisting of pithy statements from a wealth management company trying to scare people into letting them manage their money?

[aaomidi]

Exactly this. It's extremely difficult to lose your money at that stage.

[jhayward]

Something like 65% of all land in the UK is owned by the same families that owned it in the Norman conquest. 0.3% of the population today. Since 1066-1100.

The stat you quote may apply to some broader definition of “wealthy”, but for the true 0.1% - 0.01% it is truly eternal, and accelerating.

[groby_b]

You might want to pay closer attention to the complaints about inequality. What that focus is about is the degree of inequality.

Most people talking about it are not actually pursuing a world of absolute equality, but a world with reasonable levels of inequality, and with regulations that make a rapidly increasing spread less likely. I.e. we want floor and ceiling not too far apart, and not rapidly separating. Which means UBI alone, or minimum wage, or any number of floor-focused things are not the answer. Neither is a wealth tax, or any number of ceiling focused things the answer, by themselves.

[darawk]

> You might want to pay closer attention to the complaints about inequality. What that focus is about is the degree of inequality.

I pay quite a bit of attention to it. I'm aware of what it is people are complaining about. Everything I said stands.

> Most people talking about it are not actually pursuing a world of absolute equality, but a world with reasonable levels of inequality, and with regulations that make a rapidly increasing spread less likely. I.e. we want floor and ceiling not too far apart, and not rapidly separating. Which means UBI alone, or minimum wage, or any number of floor-focused things are not the answer. Neither is a wealth tax, or any number of ceiling focused things the answer, by themselves.

Why? What's good about that? What, exactly, is the benefit we get from pursuing a flat wealth distribution? People often promote this idea, making the implicit assumption that reducing inequality is somehow a good in and of itself.

The point of these things should be to improve the material living standards of as many people as possible. If reducing inequality is a necessary side effect of doing that, then fine. But I see no reason to pursue that as an actual ultimate goal.

[jjoonathan]

The notion of "value" pursued and optimized by our economy is proportional to wealth. Feeding a starving poor person has no economic value, but helping a rich person drain middle class retirement accounts has enormous economic value.

To the extent that the wealth distribution is unequal, our economy will ignore real, pressing issues among the poor in order to focus on the increasingly esoteric "needs" of the wealthy.

That's why absurdly lopsided wealth distribution is a problem.

[darawk]

> The notion of "value" pursued and optimized by our economy is proportional to wealth. Feeding a starving poor person has no economic value, but helping a rich person win the game of thrones / bank accounts has enormous economic value.

If you feed a poor person so that they can get a job and contribute to society, that generates quite a lot of economic value. But yes, you're right, giving away food does not increase GDP on its own. But then, neither does zero-sum wealth transfer.

> To the extent that the wealth distribution is unequal, our society will ignore real, pressing issues in order to focus its energy on silly zero-sum pissing contests among the few individuals that matter according to said distribution.

Is that so? That must be why our technology looks the same today as it did 100 years ago. Or 50 years ago. Or 20 years ago. Or 10 years ago. All those zero-sum pissing contests.

[jjoonathan]

> If you feed a poor person so that they can get a job and contribute to society, that generates quite a lot of economic value.

Not for you. Feeding a poor starving person does not make you richer. If they could have afforded to pay, they would not be starving. The economy fails to incentivize the satisfaction of a real need because it does not value the needs of those without money.

That, of course, is an extreme example, but the same principle applies to all the shades of gray.

> Is that so? That must be why our technology looks the same today as it did 100 years ago. Or 50 years ago. Or 20 years ago. Or 10 years ago. All those zero-sum pissing contests.

Any system of power can lay claim to the products of the society it governs, but I have always found those claims wanting, because there are so many other factors involved. Technological progress in particular. Capitalism's advocates are really good

The notion of incentivizing people to do important work is not unique to capitalism. Capitalism is not even particularly good at it, and is getting worse at it, as inequality in the wealth distribution drives capitalism's notion of what is important further and further away from what most people actually find important.

Capitalism on a somewhat level-ish wealth distribution is great: everyone gets a say in what's important. Capitalism on a super skewed wealth distribution is not great: only the lucky few get to say what's important, and everyone else is ignored. The wealth distribution is the problem, and policy to make sure it doesn't run away is going to be the eventual solution.

[tomp]

Is the degree of inequality really the issue though? Personally, I like that there are people like Jeff Bezos who can personally fund a space company.

The real problems, for me, are the power imbalances (lobbying, corruption, tax evation by rich people), and rent seeking (e.g. owning real estate or entrenched businesses).

[groby_b]

Power imbalance is directly created by the insanely rich. Bezos bought an entire newspaper. Sheldon Adelson buys his politicians more directly, but same difference.

And rent seeking is what enables the imbalance. Without rent-seeking, it'd be much harder for the gap to widen (because rent seeking captures wealth creation for the benefit of the rent seeker)

And of course, the two feed into each other - power imbalance allows for lobbying, creating opportunities to obtain rent. Which, in turn, widens the power imbalance.

Maybe you could theoretically fix those two without addressing inequality. I don't know. I suspect it wouldn't work - if you truly fixed power imbalances and rent seeking, I'd wager you'd address wealth disparity too.

I'd see all of them as tangled in the big hairy cluster that is laissez-faire capitalism.

[Retra]

Wealth inequality is the main cause of power inequality, and is thus a major reason why something like UBI won't happen just because it benefits poor people.

You can't make the world better if you are powerless, and you are powerless so long as you can be overruled by those with more wealth than you.

[darawk]

> Wealth inequality is the main cause of power inequality, and is thus a major reason why something like UBI won't happen just because it benefits poor people.

Poor people seem pretty powerful to me. In a world where rich people are infinitely powerful...what percentage of tax revenue do you think they'd be paying? 0%? 10%? The top 3% if earners paid over 50% of income tax in the US in 2016 [1]. That doesn't seem particularly powerful to me. Or, if it is, that power isn't wielded especially self-interestedly.

> You can't make the world better if you are powerless, and you are powerless so long as you can be overruled by those with more wealth than you.

Your inferences are correct, but your premises are wrong. And if you're worried about money influencing politics, well, i've got news for you: reducing wealth inequality is just going to make the influence of that money even less transparent than it is now.

1. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-10-14/top-3-of-...

[the_gastropod]

> Poor people seem pretty powerful to me. In a world where rich people are infinitely powerful...what percentage of tax revenue do you think they'd be paying? 0%? 10%? The top 3% if earners paid over 50% of income tax in the US in 2016 [1]. That doesn't seem particularly powerful to me. Or, if it is, that power isn't wielded especially self-interestedly.

Oh, give me a break. This is silly statistic often dragged out by right-wing pundits. If the entire US population earned $0 and one guy (pick anyone!) made $1 Trillion per year and paid his ~$400 Billion in taxes each year would you see him as a victim, too?

Another silly example: New York, California, and Florida contribute 25% of the U.S's tax revenues, yet they don't account for 25% of congress. They don't get 25% of the electoral college votes in presidential elections. Poor them, right?

[darawk]

> Oh, give me a break. This is silly statistic often dragged out by right-wing pundits. If the entire US population earned $0 and one guy (pick anyone!) made $1 Trillion per year and paid his ~$400 Billion in taxes each year would you see him as a victim, too?

Did I say anyone was a victim? No. You made a specific point: That the wealthy are disproportionately powerful due to income inequality. My point is: They don't seem to be powerful enough to not pay the overwhelming majority of taxes. I didn't say they were victims, or that they shouldn't be paying more in taxes. It was a counter-example to your point.

> Another silly example: New York, California, and Florida contribute 25% of the U.S's tax revenues, yet they don't account for 25% of congress. They don't get 25% of the electoral college votes in presidential elections. Poor them, right?

Well, actually, I would argue that yes, poor them. California and NY should be better represented in Congress and nationally, through electoral college reforms and other things, but that is pretty far afield from this discussion.

[Retra]

"How much tax you avoid" isn't a reliable measure of political power. Firstly, if paying taxes can work in their benefit, then there's no reason they shouldn't pay them. Secondly, "I pay your wages" is a pretty good way to influence people, and I don't see why it would fundamentally be different in congress. Thirdly, wealthy people do have more ability to avoid paying taxes. Thus the concept of "Tax havens."

[codyb]

Yea I think it’s extremely exacerbated inequality that’s a bigger issue than inequality itself.

Total equality will never be a thing, but we don’t need to live in Banana Republics either I don’t think.

That being said, without the Bezoses and Gateses, would people have that drive for greatness only to end up upper middle class?

[eeZah7Ux]

> The innovative pressure produced by inequality is something that should not be unappreciated

Citation needed. Find me 10 famous scientists that were trying to get rich.

[BucketSort]

If there weren't pathways for the application of scientific knowledge to people's needs, there wouldn't be as much funding for it. Science thrives today because people have used it to solve many problems, which generates massive wealth.

[enraged_camel]

>>As a person from the lower classes, I'm fine that people live like kings and I don't.

The problem isn’t that they live like kings. The problem is they live like kings, and want to live like emperors. And their way of doing this is to put immense pressure on politicians and stack the system even more in their favor. Tax cuts are a great example of this. Who ends up paying for those? People like you and me.