[Natanael_L]

Isn't the phrase intentionally self selected by these groups? Then what makes it dishonest to use it to refer to their beliefs?

[jakeogh]

So totally ignore what "inherently dishonest frame" means, and attempt to change the subject. Fine.

Lets take your question as true for the sake of discussion. Do you take your language cues from these people? I don't. I don't see why you would let people you strongly disagree with decide what language to use. Are you concerned you might offend them by not using their preferred terms?

Might you be opening yourself up to some rather trivial social engineering opportunities?

Anyway... def don't talk about frames.

[Natanael_L]

Are you implying outsiders won't find it completely obvious what they really are because of the name? Because it is obvious.

[jakeogh]

Why take language cues from people so eager to describe things in terms of skin color?