[_pmf_]

I wish we could standardize on using Redis as general interprocess transactional memory. I could drop 95% of our application code for our Embedded Linux platform by using stock Redis and stock SQLite, but of course there are political obstacles.

[cordite]

Is this embedded in the same process, or just within the same unit?

Aside: would an embeddable redis be a useful thing for apps and other isolated devices?

[antirez]

There is basically no gain in practical terms in running Redis as an embedded library in embedded contexts, at this point I think I'm able to summarize the key reasons.

1. Embedded systems are often used in environments where you need very resilient software. To crash the DB because there is a bug in your app is usually a bad idea.

2. As a variation of "1", it's good to have different modules as different processes, and Redis works as a glue (message bus) in that case. So again, all should talk to Redis via a unix socket or alike.

3. Latency is usually very acceptable even for the most demanding applications: when it is not, a common pattern to solve such problem is to write to a buffer from within the embedded process, that a different thread moves to Redis. Anyway if you have Redis latencies of any kind, you don't want to block your embedded app main thread.

4. Redis persistence is not compatible with that approach.

5. Many tried such projects (embedded Redis forks or reimplementations) and nobody cared. There must be a reason.

[throwaway808080]

I beg to differ. SQLite is a very popular embedded database. There is inherent simplicity to just reading and writing flat files.

Redis feels like that. It’s a simple data structure server. Now if we could have those datastructurs sync with flatfiles with the same redis API, a lot of applications would become much simpler.

I’m not sure how big of an undertaking it is though.

I’m willing to bet, a fast general datasrtuctures database syncable to flat files would open up many possibilities.

[midnightclubbed]

Having an in-memory datastore that is compact and supports fast queries and flexible data types is very useful.

I use sqlite for this purpose, essentially as an in-memory cache of data populated from disk and incoming server packets. Having redis as an option to replace mysql (or at least to compare memory use and speed) would be great.

I looked for an embedded Redis fork and came up blank, do you have links? I found Vedis, but I would rather have something built off of the Redis code than a re-implementation.

[antirez]

Sorry I don't have links since I did not track such forks in the past. However I've a question: for your use case, isn't it an option to have a library that looks like Redis from the POV of the API, but actually stores objects in memory as data structures native to your programming language? This way the API looks like a mental proxy for the DSL to access Redis and the time complexity you expect from given operations, but you are just writing to local objects.

[midnightclubbed]

That's an option but I would rather not re-invent the wheel unless necessary!

The current use of sqlite is to allow our scripted code (lua and actionscript) to make queries of the exposed data without having to write C++ code for every possible query and data object type (and implement new ones on demand).

Redis might not be the correct thing for this exact use case (some of the queries are more complex than a simple key or range look-up) but I may be prepared to take those limitations in exchange for a substantial speed and/or memory use improvement.

[e12e]

It sounds to me like there might be some area where sqlite is "to much" but lightningdb/berkleydb/toky cabinet is "too little".

I would be surprised if "actual Redis" was ever the right answer to "sqlite is too much".

But I do wonder if there are some lessons to take from Redis api and wrap something like lmdb/bdb etc.

I'm not familiar enough with Redis to know when/if this would make sense over just using sqlite, though.

[comex]

One limitation of SQLite is that it doesn’t support any kind of “notify me when some other process does X” operation. (If you Google it, you’ll find sqlite3_update_hook, but that only works for updates performed by the same process.) If you want to use SQLite as an event queue, you can have one process writing rows to a table and another process reading them, but you need some external signal to tell the second process “wake up, there’s new stuff in the queue”. Or you can have it poll on a timer, but that’s suboptimal in many different ways.

Which is topical, because watching for updates is a core feature of Redis streams (and Redis already had pub/sub channels before that). For that use case, SQLite is too little, even if your needs are otherwise quite basic.

Unfortunately, this difference in capabilities seems to be partly a result of limitations in the underlying OS APIs. SQLite uses POSIX advisory locks to lock ranges of the database file, but I don’t think there’s any similar API that provides an event or semaphore associated with a given file, instead of a lock. There are plenty of messaging APIs that aren’t associated with an arbitrary file – there are semaphores, message queues, and shared memory objects, in fact two sets of APIs for each of those (SysV and POSIX), plus signals, etc. But those all have their own namespaces, and if the two processes trying to synchronize with each other are in different containers, they might not share those namespaces. There are Unix sockets – those are a decent option, but they require one process to set itself up as the server, which is a bit weird in the SQLite model where all the processes are on an equal footing, and any may quit at any time. They also don’t work over NFS (whereas locking does, at least sometimes). You can try to mmap a regular file and then treat it as shared memory, but that’s not guaranteed to work in all cases, and again doesn’t work over NFS. I suppose you could try to abuse a lock as a semaphore, but that has its limitations…

But it’s not like many people use SQLite over NFS anyway. Whatever the approach, I’d love to see a “SQLite for notifications”. It would probably be a pretty simple library, but with the needed bells and whistles like bindings to higher level languages. If a library like this exists, I’d be very interested to hear, because a while back I searched for one in vain.

[midnightclubbed]

In my case the target application is video games (console and PC) so we performance and/or memory usage critical.

I've used Redis very successfully on the backend, so maybe I'm just trying to find some reason, any reason, to play with it in player facing code!

[siscia]

When I get started to build RediSLQ I wanted an interprocess, fast, data store that supported SQL manipulation.

It may be useful to you as well: RediSLQ.com

Or on GitHub: https://github.com/RedBeardLab/rediSQL

Full disclaimer: I am the author

[64738]

Did you mean RediSQL.com? Or is that someone else?

[siscia]

Indeed you are right!

Yes https://redisql.com

[jinjin2]

I’ve used Realm for this very successfully. It is a bit limited in the number of languages it supports (outside of mobile where it seems to support pretty much everything), but it has really nice support for node.js and .net which is where I have used it.

It is pretty cool to be able to share live interconnected objects between processes with full transactional safety.

[Matthias247]

Embedded is a very huge field. That can be everything from aviation, military and medial up to some toys.

For some of those using something as Redis as the existing service might be interesting, for others it will be a no-go.

I worked on automative infotainment system in the past, and throwing Redis on an embedded Linux system there would have been fine if it would have fulfilled a particular task in a good fashion. I think I even proposed it once for something.

[misterman0]

"basically no gain"

My payload are lists of int64's. I need to do set operations on those lists before sending the result over the wire. If you advise against embedding redis, can I instead embed my logic in redis? As a filter of sorts?

[kornish]

You can run Lua natively in Redis.

[zachwill]

I hardly ever comment, but this is a really cool idea. Could you elaborate a little more? (On technical aspects, not political obstacles.)

[smush]

Complete conjecture, I am not the GP.

Hydrating/deserializing data from Sqlite into types/objects and doing whatever goodness those need, then using Redis to make "updating the database" super fast (in memory after all) and let Redis write it back to Sqlite as there is IO/time/lull in traffic.

Kinda like how Epic Cache does its transaction journal flushing every X minutes?

[siscia]

You could have a look into RediSLQ (RediSLQ.com) which is a redis module that embed SQLite, giving crazy fast performance.

It gives you a lot of interesting concepts like "lightweight databases" or push queries result into streams.

Here the GitHub repo: https://github.com/RedBeardLab/rediSQL

Full disclaimer, I am the author.

[smush]

I'm pleased you took the time to send this little targeted advert my way. I will be glad to check out that repo.

[siscia]

Thanks! Any feedback is welcome!

[bruce_one]

Some silly feedback on typos:

> Carefully tested for correcteness and tuned for performance – never loose a bit.

correcteness -> correctness (slightly ironic :-) ) loose -> lose

> RediSQL inheritanve all the SQLite knobs and capabilities

inheritanve -> inherits

> RediSQL is written in Rust which provides more guarantess agains common bugs

agains -> against

> Only a very minor part of RediSQL is not releases as open source

releases -> released

Just fyi :-) Looks like a really interesting tool :-)

[turtlebits]

FYI the SSL cert has expired on whoever is hosting your download link (plasso.com)

[siscia]

The correct URL is https://redisql.com

[e12e]

It looks like an interesting project - but I'm not sure I understand how it's better than a ram backed sqlite instance. It forces/let's you use the Redis protocol to connect rather than embedding?

[siscia]

It allow you to access the same dataset from different processes (possible also with SQLite) and machines.

[svnpenn]

> RediSLQ

> rediSQL

why different spelling