[gowld]

Taxes are quite clearly an infringement of personal freedom. Government-run healthcare removes (or greatly reduces) the choice of care from the open market and puts it in the government's control. You can't operate or patronize a medical service provider that is insolvent because the government offers a subsidized alternative service.

There are tradeoffs, and well spent taxes can open up opportunities otherwise precluded, NHS might be better than a private alternative, but in the cost/benefit analysis, the costs really do exist.

[joppy]

Government-run healthcare does not always reduce the choice of care, it can do the opposite! In Australia, many medical services are subsidised by the government, meaning many of them (for example, a visit to a GP) can be free. However, a GP is still free to claim this money from the government, while still charging extra on top of that. The end result is that people who can’t afford health insurance still get health care, while people who can afford to pick and choose quality of care can still do so, and at a reduced cost.

I’m not saying Australia has it right in every way, I’m just saying that universal health care doesn’t need to restrict your choice of care.

[crumbshot]

I don't see how taxes are an infringement of personal freedom, could you elaborate?

[roenxi]

It's a slightly roundabout set of links that tends to become very clear to people paying >40% of their income in taxes. First, some setup:

The base case is I think the world needs to change, so I spend 8 hours changing it for the better.

The extended case is other people notice I am making the world better, and want to pitch in. We've got this great indirection system in money to allow that to happen with a highly abstract measure of 'resources' so even if they don't know how to contribute personally they can signal how important my work is to others.

Now, there are respectable schools of thought that believe something like (a) there are people who do not have the capacity to meaningfully contribute resources or (b) initial control of raw resources is more impactful than human endeavor. They employ taxes to change how resources are distributed.

And now, the freedom angle:

Without government tax, if I work for 8 hours I can presumably provide for myself in about 2-3 because modern production is so efficient, and then I get 5 hours to reshape the world into something I want to live in. With government tax, the split is basically 2-3 for me, 2-3 for the government, 3 for changing the world to taste. This is effectively a loss of liberty, because now I have half the control over how the world changes.

That isn't particularly profound, it is just how taxes work. But one of the points of money is abstracting direct work for contributing. In a sense, this is the same as labouring directly on a government project for 2-3 hours, and that would be slavery. Obviously taxes aren't slavery because they aren't mandatory (don't want to pay taxes, don't work) but the parallel is there for reducing liberty.

[crumbshot]

Interesting argument, though I think this could also support the claim that paying taxes increases personal liberty. By having a portion of income paid into the commons for the general benefit of society, this means you don't have to work directly on such government-led projects, giving you increased freedom in where you apply your labour.

[SturgeonsLaw]

I think you're being a bit idealistic to assume that people would generally spend their excess resources shaping the world for the better.

Instead, we seem to see a lot of people spending those resources on shiny toys to make their own lives a little better, and in some cases, spending those resources to ensure that they get more resources in the future, at the expense of others.

[MikeHolman]

The problem is that most people act selfishly with that "5 to reshape the world into something you want to live in". The world they want to live in has them lazing on a beach, not providing healthcare for the masses.

[stcredzero]

The world they want to live in has them lazing on a beach

Far better places to play with a LASER than on a beach.