[tkiley]

> They are putting on steam largely because of the USA's shit healthcare system "after Zach's latest cancer scare, we determined that with my healthcare plan's copay etc., I'd be wiped out if I had to undergo the same procedures . . "

I have mixed feelings about this.

On the one hand, it totally sucks.

On the other hand, I suspect that as as consequence of this crappy pressure, Dwarf Fortress will reach a substantially wider audience and bring joy to a greater number of people.

I'll be interested to see how Tarn looks back on this moment in, say, five years.

[conistonwater]

> bring joy

Yeah, right. I bet you'll see it in productivity statistics instead. It's as bad as Factorio.

[gotocake]

Every friend I’ve turned onto either game was basically lost for months, then returned to the world like a shipwrecked survivor. It was all long beards and uncut hair, wild eyes and impossible tales. These games are so good they should come with rehab.

[Macuyiko]

I wish these games would still have that effect on me. I mean, I can totally see it happening back when I was 20-25 years old.

When I try to start factorio, df, rimworld today, I can see the systems, I can feel the ocd style appeal and feedback loops grabbing me, until I realize after one hour that 1) this is just the same as work, 2) someone else has already optimized the crap out of this, better then I'd ever have time for and 3) I might be better off doing real work instead, lest I feel guilty.

I then uninstall the game, never to return. It's pretty dreary as ultimately all games end up as thinly veiled optimization or grinding boxes that can be tuned, if you only put in the effort. Recent triple a focus on grinding, addictive elements and microtransactions have made this worse.

I've been thinking a lot about finding a genre or mechanic that would still "work", but I find it sad that I cannot get the long term enjoyment without worry anymore from games as I could years ago.

[clucas]

I know this feeling - you're climbing up that hill at the very beginning, trying to figure out the mechanics and what the game is about. Then when you finally crest it, you see the whole game set out before you like a beautiful valley... and you realize, "this is going to take hours and days, and I already understand it." You judge the time required vs. the enjoyment that may be gained, and the game loses. And it's sad, because you want the game to win, but you can't just let it.

One game I'll recommend if you're in this boat with me is Slay the Spire - it's a roguelike, so you play run after run from the beginning, instead of working from the same save like Factorio. The mechanics vary from run to run, sometimes significantly, because the cards and relics you collect along the way can completely change how the game plays. I've been enjoying it for a few months now, and while I sometimes put it away for a week or two at a time, I'm still coming back to it. I think part of it is I'm playing to figure out how to survive a run, not to figure out how the game works.

Anyway, check it out - definitely worth $25, and it may give you that long-term enjoyment you're looking for. Though I think, to paraphrase Stand By Me, "I don't have any games like I did when I was 10. Jesus, does anybody?"

[mysterydip]

I'd recommend roguelikes in general. Run and done in a sitting, and you can't really optimize the same way as the game has hidden/random elements.

Two I'd recommend looking at: FTL and Into the Breach.

[danbolt]

The 7DRL Challenge just completed this past weekend. A lot of the entries are quite small, and runs can be quite short. I think the 7-day time limit contributes to that.[1]

[1] https://itch.io/jam/7drl-challenge-2019

[DylanDmitri]

I enjoy both of those, but have been playing more Slay the Spire recently. It has wonderful diversity in viable builds, and most runs you end up with something unexpected. A delightful sense of discovery and mastery.

[brazzy]

> Two I'd recommend looking at: FTL and Into the Breach.

Was about to post this :)

[trexmix]

What roguelikes (beyond maybe Brogue) can you finish in a sitting?

[krisAU]

Ancient Domains of Mystery (ADOM) is a very good roguelike, and has been actively developed for decade(s). Recommended.

[phren0logy]

I will second Slay the Spire as worth a long look for a busy gamer

[eropple]

I tend to feel that way about Factorio, but I strongly don't about Dwarf Fortress (or Rimworld). Both of those games are story generators. It's about the things thrown at you and the ways you cope--or don't, which is also fun--with the unexpected while building something you think is cool.

Dwarf Fortress in particular doesn't care about optimization (either of code or of your play). Build what you want. Figure out what you think is cool and do it. There are, literally, no goals other than the ones in your head.

[shanusmagnus]

Thanks for making the connection to work -- I keep having this same thing, all the time, about many endeavors. "If I'm going to invest all this time learning _x_, why don't I spend the same time learning _a real thing_ that can help with my actual life?"

On the one hand it sounds like I've become a joyless husk (which may be true.) On the other hand, maybe I should play the larger real-life game that has so much better payoffs?

It feels wrong though.

[intended]

You guys need to draw a line and realize “this part is fun.” And “this part is work, and I want to imagine it is fun because I get ahead, but honestly it’s not fun but I’m proud/happy of/with myself if I do it.”

Fun is a critical part of life, Its the point of living as Opposed to surviving.

[jpttsn]

Depends what you do, I guess. I can sometimes “pretend to enjoy” vacations, social events, games etc. Very rarely have to pretend to enjoy work.

[imtringued]

> "If I'm going to invest all this time learning _x_, why don't I spend the same time learning _a real thing_ that can help with my actual life?"

Because learning a real thing that can help you will probably take 3 to 6 years and has a relatively high risk of failure. In that same time frame you can play a hundred different games each with a unique experience.

[FPGAhacker]

I consider this to be healthy. There are real world problems to spend your time on.

The real world has achievements to be earned and systems to be optimized. Why not seek those out and end up with something to show for your effort?

Nobody is going to lie on their deathbed wishing they had played more factorio.

[flukus]

Real world achievements usually require significantly higher time investments with systems that are almost entirely beyond your control (no modding support unfortunately) and having something to show will often result in long term responsibilities, many you will never escape from.

At least with games you can save and quit at any time.

[wallace_f]

Well to entertain the other side of that argument: the real world is filled with cheating and inopporunity. Why waste your time drudging through a world of bullshit when you can entertain or define your own pursuit of happiness? If that happens to be video games, why wouldn't you wish you did more of that?

[intended]

Many many people will wish that, as opposed to having done better at work.

People will regret missed relationships, events, risks not taking and trips not made.

You’d regret dying without having done anything you really wanted to do.

And observably - very few people truly have their joy aligned with their productive employment.

[Shorn]

I have banned myself from playing any "building" games like Factorio, Minecraft, etc. Any time I get that itch, I work on my side-project on AWS. AWS is so big with so many systems, it's kind of like a big complex game. Building functionality is "progression", the core-gameplay loop. Dollars spent is "currency" (though the goal is to minimise, rather than maximise). Balancing "currency" against "progression" is the meta-game. I feel very lucky to still be able to enjoy coding after 20 years.

[Namrog84]

I have this same problem. In factorio for example.

Either I use other people's efficient designs that are more optimal and then I feel like I'm just copy pasting and not playing.

Or I end up wanting to write a program or design things that can produce the optimal designs. All of which involve not actually playing the game but playing excel spreadsheet or programming dynamic programming algorithms.

I like games that allow min maxing a lot. But they need to be in such a way that there is more to the game and less copyable stuff. So that I can enjoy and play the game.

[daemin]

One way you could play is embrace the imperfect, know that not everything has to be optimal, and learn to adjust to the circumstances.

I find myself wanting to build perfect things so I speak from experience in needing to let things go and adapt to the situation rather than seeking a perfect play through.

[taneq]

> 1) this is just the same as work

This is how I feel about Factorio along with basically every Zachtronics game ever. I want to get into it but I could literally get paid for doing the same thing. I guess I'm just lucky to be able to do work that I love (or conversely to be built such that I enjoy things that are useful.)

[thrax]

Game dev in my 40s here. I have the same problem. The way I mitigate it is by sampling lots of games and just giving myself permission to just do that. You gotta figure all creative persuits are like this. Winemakers can't drink all the wine they ever see. Don't be too hard on yourself and just enjoy the new shiny when you see it... Take a taste and move on. Had a blast playing recroom on Oculus over the weekend. Had to take a nap afterwards.. lol. Don't know if I'll go back in any time soon.

[kakarot]

This is why, from the beginning, Factorio never appealed to me. I haven't played a single minute of it despite the fact I know I'd be good at it.

You may be engineering your own solution, but it's still the solution to someone else's problem. When you win, it's an empty feeling.

With respect to sandbox games, games like Minecraft truly offer you unlimited freedom. Minecraft is completely open. You get dropped into a new world with no instructions and no goals. The only problems are your own, and so your solutions feel like your own. Your victories feel like your own. Your defeats feel like your own. You feel like you're in another world, not working overtime at your desk solving problems.

With respect to other genres, look for something between challenge and wonder. Find games which are made with 100% love no matter the complexity or fidelity. Each level, take in everything you see and think about how someone laboriously designed every art asset you see, every system you use, every character, dialogue, level chunk, etc.

Take in these games as the massive, collaborative works of art that they are. When you're playing them, you're setting aside time in your week to become a receptacle for someone else's vision. A patron of their art.

Find games which you're still thinking about months after you've beaten them. Find games which have dead simple mechanics and are designed around short bursts of focused, intense gameplay, with which you can spend the next few years of your life slowly and methodically honing your skills in the small gaps between important engagements.

Play old games. Don't just play the latest and greatest. Video games are only half a century old, it's still possible to play many of the bonafide classics without devoting your life to it. You'll find more engaging and rewarding gameplay with the simple, but focused systems older games employ. You'll find joy in the way that the game's artists were able to create their vision with only a 320×200 resolution and 256-color palette, or only a couple thousand polygons.

In short, avoid modern AAA games like the plague. Just like the monstrosity that is the modern Hollywood scene or pop radio culture, AAA games have become an engine which sucks players out of all the money it can.

If you're not into false gameplay, addictive elements like loot boxes and micro-transactions in the face of extreme grinding, that doesn't mean you're not still into games.

[klyrs]

> You may be engineering your own solution, but it's still the solution to someone else's problem. When you win, it's an empty feeling.

Speaking very personally... you might be playing sandbox games wrong: forget their goals. A while back, I decided that Factorio is Turing complete, even without the luxury of combiners... and I'm partway through an implementation of Eratosthenes' sieve? Rather than efficiency spreadsheets, I draw state diagrams :) Also inserters have nasty quirks that really make things fun

[kakarot]

I don't think I'm playing sandbox games wrong. I've put hundreds of hours into them. That doesn't mean I'm going to find Factorio engaging.

[taneq]

I have the same problem with pure sandbox games like Minecraft that I have with engineering games like Factorio. They're close enough to being simulations of the real thing (you can't argue that living on this planet isn't a - sometimes literal - sandbox!) that pretty soon I realise I might as well be putting the same effort into real life and getting tangible rewards.

[throwaway2048]

Factorio nominally has an endgame "goal" (even completing it does not end the game) but it can be entirely ignored, and you are free to set whatever goals you feel like.

[Wowfunhappy]

> I've been thinking a lot about finding a genre or mechanic that would still "work", but I find it sad that I cannot get the long term enjoyment without worry anymore from games as I could years ago.

Try some games that are designed more as "cinematic" experiences. This isn't a bulletproof strategy (cinematic games can have grindy elements), but it usually works.

Some new-ish recommendations:

• Hellblade

• Gris

• Life is Strange

• Journey

• Abzú

• Monument Valley

I also feel that Nintendo in particular has done a good job of avoiding the the stuff you describe, in their mainstream titles.

Actually, another strategy would be to just avoid any game that let's you purchase in-game items or currency, regardless of context.

[smichel17]

I feel similarly these days about a lot of "gamey" games. However, I've still found story or environment driven games, where the gameplay is in service of something greater, to be worthwhile. If you haven't played them, I'd recommend:

- Psychonauts for something wacky and hilarious that will leave you satisfied and vaguely wistful that it's over.

- Nier: Automata for something gripping and tragic that will leave you wanting to find your loved ones, give them a hug, and let them know how much you appreciate them.

[01100011]

> 1) this is just the same as work

Damn, I've said this myself many times. I used to love gaming, but now, sitting in front of a computer and strategizing is something I get paid to do and spending a few precious hours doing it after work seems so stupid. I really miss the meditative aspect of getting absorbed in a game. I can still manage to play retro console games occasionally, but I really don't have the patience for much gaming these days.

[hprotagonist]

>I've been thinking a lot about finding a genre or mechanic that would still "work", but I find it sad that I cannot get the long term enjoyment without worry anymore from games as I could years ago.

scummvm is calling you.

[Havoc]

Yeah I know what you mean.

I've started playing games at lower difficulty than would be "right" for me, so that I can get through the story.

>I've been thinking a lot about finding a genre or mechanic that would still "work"

Have a look at planetary annihilation. Plus the community mod legions. No microtx, games against AI are decent fun etc. Well worth the price without being a crazy time sink - a quick AI game is like an hour.

[pault]

I picked up DF a few years ago, and shortly after my girlfriend left for a two week trip. I had a bunch of stuff I was supposed to do around the house while she was gone, but I ended up going completely nocturnal and spent the entire two weeks in bed with my laptop. I didn't shower or brush my teeth and I only stopped playing long enough to pick up some takeout once or twice per day. I never finished any of the work I was supposed to do, but I did build a fortress on the side of a volcano with a gravity fed network of lava-powered forges, a defensive labyrinth leading to the front gate with a series of automated lava traps, and a dwarven atom smasher to catch any enemies that made it past the lava. I was working on a powered rail network when I lost most of my population to a series of riots and blood feuds triggered by a shortage of clean socks.

Every once in a while I get tempted to start playing again, but then I remember the look on my girlfriend's face when she came home and found me sitting in a pile of empty pizza boxes wearing nothing but underwear that I hadn't washed in two weeks.

[hota_mazi]

Sure, but did you show her your fortress?

[ahje]

Related: My wife's hooked on watching me play DF as long as there's a tileset enabled. This is a god-send! :D

[0_gravitas]

They do call it Cracktorio for a reason

[Haga]

Just one more line and then I will quit, go clean and choose real life.

[0_gravitas]

Just one more belt*. In earnest, I owe a lot to factorio, I started playing it towards the beginning of my programming career, and I was in a rough way, I could solve all the little toy problems my professors would throw at me, but the second there was anything big, I fell apart.

The fact of the matter is I was always doing everything in main, I had never really used functions for anything, I thought they were useless/extra work! And I eventually just had a moment playing factorio, looking at someone else's blueprint , and how neat and self contained it was, and how it had its organized and clear inputs and outputs... and it all just clicked. I'm much better at structuring my projects now and have very much become more function-centric in my work (I am actually currently falling for the clojure meme pretty heavily atm).

[simonebrunozzi]

Reminds me of the lost days of Master of Orion 2 or Master of Magic. 20+ years ago. Still great games even today.

[Mirioron]

>These games are so good they should come with rehab.

What if we instead use the games as rehab?

[keithnz]

and the 17 release is out which changes a number of things so I'm playing it again and working out new designs while also thinking to myself "oh no.... oh no.... why am I up at 2am, I have work tomorrow, ok, bed time, right after I just finish this off....3am"

[crooked-v]

I've started to get the same feeling from Factory Town. Conveyor belts and elaborate production chains, but this time in 3D!

[Haga]

It will be the same story all over. It seems to fail at first and the devs are bored by the additional bureaucratic work. Then a wild weasel in suit appears..

[_cs2017_]

> On the one hand, it totally sucks

Do you mean it sucks because you prefer the game to be supported only by donations? If so, why?

Or did you mean something else?

[taeric]

I think it was that the statement that a "cancer scare" can "completely wipe out" someone that should be doing absolutely fine. That is not a working system.

Choosing to put it on Steam, or not, is completely orthogonal to that. At least, it should be.

[rexpop]

Hey, look at it this way: Capitalism in healthcare does drive a better consumer experience!

[seleniumBubbles]

I think the other response was flagged for language, but the included link was really interesting. I'd never even heard of medical "lodge practice" before seeing this video and reading through some of the references.

They're basically voluntary, mutual aid societies – many of them were basically small unions. The were strangled by the bigger, consolidated organizations:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fFoXyFmmGBQ

The video is probably good for most audiences, but if (like me) you prefer to read, it looks like this is the short essay it's based on: http://www.freenation.org/a/f12l3.html

The references at the end of the essay include some really interesting historical accounts which I've enjoyed reading over the past few hours.

[chillwaves]

Video seems to hand wave the actual issues of healthcare which are treatment costs and scalability.

The only issue addressed was basically labor rate of doctors (and AMA artificially limiting the pool of doctors by raising standards).

The tone of the video was horrible -- no thanks. I don't need scary cartoons to tell me how to vote.

The end conclusion is basically "what if gov't is the problem?" without offering a solution (or even evidence based critique of modern systems -- what happened over 100 years ago is not the most relevant to my interests. As others have pointed out, the practice of medicine was a lot different then). Total waste of time and attention.

I honestly cannot understand how people look at the health care situation in America and think "if only health insurance had less restrictions, that would solve everything!"

[Haga]

Heroin has best user experience.. Good thing we are all rational actors..

[Pristina]

I will keep this in my monetisation handbook. "If I had cancer I would be wiped out which is why XYZ is no longer free. thx for your support"

[hobofan]

But the non-pretty version of Dwarf Fortress is still free and will continue to be free. If that weren't the case there would probably be quite some backlash from the community.