[dotancohen]

I love the spin you put on it. Palestinian programmers make no less than Israeli programmers in the Israeli high technology sector. In fact, that goes for all jobs in the Israeli high-tech sector, from PMs to HR, CTOs.

Furthermore, Palestinians in the West bank regularly talk to me about their situation, because I'm what you would call a "settler" and I buy in their towns, and I pick them up hitchhiking, and I talk to them with no borders. They all have family in Jordan and will happily tell you how much better their "occupied" life is than their Jordanian family. And yes, I've been to Jordan and I've been to Egypt and I've been to Lebanon (albeit in uniform on that one).

Dislike Israel's policies as much as you want, I'm unhappy with many of them as well. Hate our PM, you'll find good reason to. But there is no need to lie or put spin on the fact that 99% of Israelis have no qualm with Palestinians or pay them less for equal labour. Likewise, 99% of Palestinians have no qualm with Israel or Israelis, and want (like us) to work hard, come home and love our children, and live in peace with our neighbours.

[mruts]

I'm palestinian and have family in the West bank and Gaza. What you're saying isn't true at all.

Funnily enough, I also have family in Jordan. Let me tell you, their lives are much better than those under Israeli occupation.

[dotancohen]

I would appreciate your perspective. I'm sure that many posters here would as well.

Another poster here did mention that the fine article mentions that Mellanox can hire three Palestinians for the price of one Israeli. That is not typical of the Israeli high tech sector. It _is_ typical of some other labour markets, notably building and agriculture.

Note that I'm specifically referring to the West Bank. I'm sure that the situation in Gaza is so much worse that in my worst dreams I cannot imagine it. From where are your family? I'm in Eshkolot, in the south Hebron hills, right next to Al-Ramadin.

[zymhan]

I'm in the same position. This person is off their rocker.

[dang]

Please don't call names. That's a sure way to ignite a tinderbox, and a flamewar will do none of us any good. Scorched earth is all the same.

Even if completely wrong, the GP is pretty clearly posting in good faith (as you are too, I'm sure).

As an alternative, sharing some details of your position would be more interesting and helpful. Only if you want to, of course.

[zymhan]

I mean that directly contradicts the subtitle of this article:

> "For the price of one Israeli engineer, an [Israeli] company can hire three Palestinians in the West Bank"

[nabla9]

If you reflect a little, I'm sure that you can backtrack that claim that only 1% of Israelis and Palestinians have qualm with each others. Every country has more bigots than 1%.

If you look at Israeli public opinion polls from past ten years or so, you get very different view. 30% feel hatred when they hear Arab spoken in the street, 50% say they would refuse to work at a job where direct supervisor was an Arab.

[MichaelMoser123]

I am an Israeli citizens and worked under an Arabic speaking supervisor as a programmer, didn't have any problems with that. Not sure if these numbers are correct - polls can be manipulated in many subtle ways, polls in Israel have a bad track records in terms of accuracy.

[nabla9]

> I am an Israeli citizens and worked under an Arabic speaking supervisor as a programmer, didn't have any problems with that.

I'm sure your are aware that you didn't give a counterargument.

[MichaelMoser123]

I questioned the validity of polls in Israel, if you noticed. Can expand on that: the population is very fragmented and you can manipulate the poll by the way that a question is framed for instance, by the selection of persons polled, lots if variables that also tend to be abused in one way or another. They can't even get the exit polls right, seriously!

[nabla9]

How about the the elections, local and state, and how the politicians talk to get support. People are honest when they vote.

Maybe moderate people support bigoted politicians for some reason and politicians think that bigotry gets votes, I don't know. But it surely don't look good.

[mola]

Moderate people did support extreme politicians. They accomplished the task by using good old fear tactics (which are especially effective, when actual rockets are flying at major cities and people get stabbed in the streets by people pronounching their will to destroy Israel) Now, we also have a very fragmented parlament which allowed some small parties (the ultra orthodocs) to be a linchpin for coalition building. They aligned themselves with the right, because they got the funds they wanted. (The last moderate leader with a chance of being PM, Tzipi Livni, refused paying them, while Netanyahu didn't. Since then, Netanyahu crippled the Free press with a multi thronged attack. Aided by astronomical sums of money from Sheldon Adleson, created a free daily paper, which he directly controls. He focused his efforts as the minister of communications (he is actually not only the PM but the minister in a few other offices) to destroy a TV channel that was home to some very critical journalists. He managed to fragment the media to a huge amount of small players, reliant on government advertising(all in the name of making the media more democratic and free). After a very successful reform in the public broadcasting channel, done by Gilad Arden, one of his deputees, he learned that the reform didn't give him editorial power, He lamented that the reform was a mistake and tried to shutdown the public broadcasting authority. He is still working on it, he pulled his weight so no extra budget will be given to host the Eurovision competition, which we won last year (yay!) So now the channel either exceeds it's fixed budget, and he can 'prove' that public broadcasting is inefficient. Or the channel won't host the competition, which will make all Israelis hate the public broadcasting authority.... WinWin. Oh another example of him corrupting the israeli media was shown in the recent criminal inditment he is facing. Aledgedly he gave very preferential treatment for a Telco company in exchange for editorial control in a news website owned by the same owner of that Telco...

Using all of these new media channels under his absolute or partial control he galvanised the populus against the treacherous left, and perpetuated a very strong siege mentality (which us Jews are, understandably, prone to) while positioning himself as the only viable leader capable of fending off all those who wish to destroy Israel (which is easy, because there are plenty of people actually seeking that end) The last few years he really upped his game by talking directly to the public through Facebook and WhatsApp, (because the media is apparently against him ️...) And using much more crude language, a la Trump. This new media operation is managed by his son. He and his far right allies also orchestrate a public campaign against the so called left junta in the high court. This is done via his affiliated media, and by bringing about blatantly populist non 'constitutional' laws that the court rejects, which he can use as proof for the 'leftist' court. (We don't have a formal constitution, but we have something similar)

Similarly He also promotes the idea that a leftist junta is controlling the media, the police (after his appointed chief of police didn't curtail investigations against him) and all public beaurocrats. Oh and his son is posting antisemitic memes depicting Soros copied from the American alt right. So yeah, the israeli PM is using classic antisemetic tactics against the israeli left. (We live in weird times... :( )

But, The employment rates are high, TV is entertaining and the economy is stable, so most people can easily buy in the only Netanyahu can lead us.

So if you'd ask me a few years ago, I'd say people of Israel are moderate, but fearful for the lives. Since then, the constant hammering of propoganda is corroding some basic democratic values. Younger people are less moderate, and paradoxaly are more prone to the siege mentality (although Israel is stronger than ever military wise) and nationalistic chauvinism. So I don't know if the future is bright. We still have a vocal oposition, and a moderate (albeit leaderless) majority, so I hope when he leaves the scene we'll manage to come back to some sane discourse, but I won't bet on it.

[dotancohen]

Maybe not 1%, but it really is not a significant portion. At least not in the circles where I am found: 1. I'm "a settler" in the West Bank. 2. I work in Israeli high-tech. 3. I work with mostly religious Jews.

Note that the polls suffer from "survivor bias", the people answering the polls are those who feel that they need to should their opinion to the world. I don't answer polls, and with elections coming I get several SMS polls per day sent to my phone.

30% feel hatred when they hear Arabic? Who are they polling?!? There is absolutely no way that is true for the general population. You cannot go anywhere in Israel and not hear Arabic.

50% would refuse to work under Arab supervision? Again, this is ridiculous. I don't think money-sucking Jews would refuse to work under Hitler.

[eganist]

> 50% would refuse to work under Arab supervision? Again, this is ridiculous. I don't think money-sucking Jews would refuse to work under Hitler.

Got curious and googled. Couldn't find that last statistic, but it seems 58% (give or take) of residents in the city of Ashkelon were in favor of terminating public works projects (specifically construction of bomb shelters at kindergartens) where Arab workers were employed.

Whether this is an effective proxy for all of Israel or even for the question at hand is unknown to me, and it probably isn't the case considering Israeli AG Yehuda Weinstein warned the city's mayor not to execute the decree, but I'm not terribly focused on the decree itself as much as I'm focused on the population backing it. 58% of a city would appear to be fearful of an employed population because of their ethnic heritage... that's terrifying.

http://www.timesofisrael.com/ashkelon-mayor-warned-over-arab...

(p.s. it seems mayor Itamar Shimoni ultimately backed off the move, possibly one of the rare cases where an elected public official made a more well-informed decision than what was desired by the official's constituents. https://www.jta.org/2014/11/23/israel/ashkelon-mayor-decides... )

---

Disclosure: I'm an American-born person of Persian descent, though I'm likely unable (and certainly unwilling) to revisit Persia/Iran under the current regime.

[dotancohen]

I'm not sure which polls you are referring to, but I'l make you aware of a common tactic. You cannot believe polls in Israel, the questions and methods used are designed to return a specific conclusion.

Often polls will conflate the terms Arab, Muslim, Palestinian, Gazan, and a few other words. You will see that they will ask a question that is interpreted to the poll taker as "would you agree that Gazans who have bombed Ashkelon should be forbidden to work in Ashkelon" and then reported as "Ashkelon residents in favor of terminating construction of bomb shelters at kindergartens where Arab workers are employed".

The polls are _designed_ to present a specific picture, they are not designed to inform about the true nature of the situation. Just ask yourself, why are so many polls being taken, what is their purpose. You know as well as I do that there are no disinterested parties here, everybody has an agenda. At least I state my agenda and position clearly.

You'll also be surprised to know that I know not a single Israeli, not one, who has any qualm with the Iranian people. We're terrified of their nuclear program, but we remember the days of friendship between our countries and a significant portion of Israelis are of Iranian decent. Iran pretty much attacks us via proxy today (Hizboallah), but we see that as a manifest of their current religious regime and not as representative of the Persian people.

[1024core]

> Maybe not 1%, but it really is not a significant portion. At least not in the circles where I am found

Ah, the "No true Scotsman" defense.

[1024core]

> because I'm what you would call a "settler"

Not just "you"; everyone. It is illegal. Even the UN has called for an end to this practice. Most countries don't recognize Israel's occupation of the West Bank. The UNSC has condemned the practice. Israel routinely destroys Palestinian homes and villages for the benefit of you people (the "settlers").

https://www.presstv.com/Detail/2019/02/09/588118/Israel-to-c...

Read more about "settlers": https://www.btselem.org/topic/settler_violence

[tootie]

I agree with your sentiment, but the number is way below 99%. You can't blissfully ignore that a substantial number of people on both sides really hate each other. You can't say your PM is a jerk, but not the people because the people voted for him (or at least his party).

[md5person]

Seriously? Would you say the American people are "jerks" because Trump was voted into power? That's not how any of this works.

[majewsky]

That's a very obvious strawman. If you downsize it to the level that GP alluded to, asking if Trump's voters are jerks because they voted him into power, I guess a non-negligible amount of people would agree.

[md5person]

Have you read tootie's comment at-all?

> "You can't say your PM is a jerk, but not the people because the people voted for him (or at least his party)."

No, it's not the people. It's some people that voted Likud in. Much like some Americans voted Trump in. Where's the strawman?

[1024core]

Those "some people" must number more than 1%, right? It is almost impossible to win a non-trivial number of seats in the election if only 1% of the people support you.

30% of Americans even today support Trump. So one would be right to claim that 30% of Americans are jerks.

[conradfr]

This may be off topic for HN but what do you think the rest of the world think of Americans?

[tootie]

Absolutely, yes. You can go visit the heartland or the rust belt or whatever and people are friendly and polite and welcoming in person, but they voted for Trump so they're jerks. They support xenophobia, homophobia, torture, corruption. There's a difference between being nice and being good.

[skinnymuch]

What you’re saying already seems a bit suspect. Especially with you commenting on someone else putting spin on something you appear to be putting spin on. Then you start things off with going against what the OP’s article says in its subtitle without any backing:

“'For the price of one Israeli engineer, an [Israeli] company can hire three Palestinians in the West Bank, and they have very high motivation'”

Likewise, the 1% of Palestinians and Israelis have any qualms with one another also has no backing by any data or real life. Since it also isn’t true at all and there’s actually polls, maybe studies, to show that isn’t true. Too much spin.

[Cyph0n]

Yeah, I’m sure Palestinians living in Jordan have to go through military checkpoints everywhere they go.

[navlelo]

This is quite interesting. This is not at all how this is portrayed in the media.

Would be cool to hear from a palestinian living there as well

[mruts]

I am palestinian and have family in the West bank and Gaza. And what OPs saying isn't true at all. They are an occupied and oppressed people, treated like dirt and without representation.

Gaza is literally a concentration camp that is extremely hard to get out of. Moreover, the Israelis block imports of food and building supplies, essentially trying to starve the inhabitants to death.

What OP is saying is similar to saying that black people loved slavery and then segregation, because their masters were so fair and kind to them.

[dotancohen]

I'm the OP, and I agree that the situation in Gaza is beyond reprehensible. I see where Gaza is today, I see how it got there and the Israeli / Egyption hand in it, and I only wonder if it could have worked out differently.

I wonder if it can even ever be resolved.

[Cyph0n]

Regarding Gaza, what’s truly sad is that Israel allows more aid through its border than Egypt does...

[dang]

Can you please make sure to edit out swipes, especially when posting on divisive topics? Your comment would be fine without the first bit.

[fxfan]

That and the fact that while Israel is blamed for everything, nobody ever mentions how Palestinian children are poisoned with anti-israel rhetoric.

[stochastic_monk]

Can you blame them? Israel has time and time again committed war crimes, hiding behind accusations of antisemitism whenever anyone calls them out, which cheapens the suffering of people who actually experience antisemitism in order to defend crimes against humanity.

From Human Rights Watch [0]: Israel maintains entrenched discriminatory systems that treat Palestinians unequally. Its over half-century-long occupation of the West Bank and Gaza involves systematic rights abuses, including collective punishment, routine use of excessive lethal force, and prolonged administrative detention without charge or trial for hundreds. It builds and supports illegal settlements in the occupied West Bank, expropriating Palestinian land and imposing burdens on Palestinians but not on settlers, restricting their access to basic services and making it nearly impossible for them to build in much of the West Bank without risking demolition. Israel’s decade-long closure of Gaza, supported by Egypt, severely restricts the movement of people and goods, with devastating humanitarian impact. The Palestinian Authority in the West Bank and Hamas in Gaza both sharply restrict dissent, arbitrarily arresting critics and torturing those in their custody.

For more details, see [1] and [2].

[0] https://www.hrw.org/middle-east/n-africa/israel/palestine

[1] https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/06/13/israel-apparent-war-crim...

[2] https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/01/28/submission-human-rights-...

[Cyph0n]

And Israeli children aren’t? Both sides use outrageous claims to fuel the fire, so to speak.

[dotancohen]

My children aren't. My children play with Arab children, and share their snacks. I'm 100% certain that my children have influenced at least some Arab children to reject the hatred that they are taught.

Note that in the West Bank itself, there are not many opportunities for the children to play together if the parents do not already know each other, because each side is wary of the other. So much of that interaction happens on the other side of the Green Line, with Arab children that do not live in the West Bank.

[fxfan]

how on earth can you compare children toting guns and shouting `death to israel` with whatever the israeli kids are taught? (I doubt they are even told about Palestinians, tbh)

[dotancohen]

Israeli children are in fact taught about the non-Jewish citizens. I would venture that the vast majority are taught that we're different, but neither of us are "better". We have different holidays, different language, and even measure the year differently, but we can play together and learn each other's language.

[skinnymuch]

Not being told about the Palestinians at all would be pretty bad. Pretty sure any country with an extremely controversial history dealing with other people not telling children about those people at all is bad.

[Cyph0n]

> I doubt they are even told about Palestinians, tbh

Assuming this were true, how exactly is it a good thing?

[jvzr]

I don't think parent claimed it was a good thing, more like "yeah Israeli children are not taught to shout death chants at Palestinians, in fact I'd venture they are not even taught about Palestinians". Not better, not worse, just a different stroke of bad.

[deogeo]

Occupy their land, then accuse them of hate.

[zymhan]

This is true for so many conflicts around the world sadly. Hate is everywhere.