[avinium]

As someone else just pointed out, this can be highly subjective.

An audio clip of Stephen Wolfram was recently posted on HN, in which he was dealing with a couple of team members on their API documentation.

Some described it as "toxic bullying", but even more said "That is incredibly tame and I take no issue with it". I fell into the latter.

Some people are a whole lot more fragile than others.

[rukuu001]

Yeah, that Wolfram clip sounds like an exasperated boss dealing with some people who aren't 100% aware of his expectations.

Wolfram doesn't at any point (at least while recording) make it about the team members themselves, just the work they've done.

I've had a bunch of conversations like these with a boss of some kind, so I know how awkward and unpleasant it is, but it's also an opportunity to learn a bunch of stuff.

[toofy]

> Some people are a whole lot more fragile than others.

A slightly more charitable way to phrase this might be “Some people prefer to be treated as professionals, with dignity and respect.”

I think what the poster above you was trying to get across is, part of a leaders role is to distinguish what works best for their different team members. While some people may enjoy being treated less than respectful, others may not.

[avinium]

> A slightly more charitable way to phrase this might be “Some people prefer to be treated as professionals, with dignity and respect.”

You've just proved my point - what I might consider "handling a fragile ego with kid-gloves", you would consider to be "handling professionally with dignity and respect". It's all very subjective.

I think we would agree that a company's leaders need to be consistent and clear where they think the line is, and keep an eye on performance levels to determine if they've made a mistake.

[askafriend]

I'm curious - mind linking to the audio clip? I'd like to see what argument I gravitate towards.

[Krabbyos]

link to the comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19221549

the clip of Steven Wolfram: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGjvFyRk_4I&feature=youtu.be...

[tempguy9999]

Here are my scribbled notes while listening to this just now

* wolfram sounds reasonable - a bit of a disconnect (lack of structure/procedure) between boss & employees. * Lack of high-level process. (for documenting) * Employees should have done the docs as part of the deliverable - and may have needed more support/training/guidance, and not have realised the extent this was required - maybe a managerial failure? * Docs were a mess - should ... lack of workflow to produce the docs - managerial failure? * Employees seem a bit clueless. * doing docs at all - fucking genius idea! and they have a docs team.

By 'managerial failure' I mean wolfram's.

So, assuming this review was typical, not a carefully chosen one designed to give a good impression, then given the bosses I've had to work for I'd say anyone who thinks that was 'bullying' needs some serious fucking life experience. I would be really grateful to have someone who didn't explode into anger, patronise, shout, ask for far too much (mucho free overtime Edit: entirely unpaid), disregard advice based on my 20 years experience in DBs because boss read a book and misunderstood it, expected (gasp!) actual documentation to be part of the deliverable...

Fuck, I'm seriously angry that anyone could consider this unreasonable. He was anything but. How could anyone think that?

disclaimer, I've no link to wolfram or any of his products or companies or affiliates. I'd be extremely happy to work for him after this. (further disclaimer, I'm not the easiest/brightest person to work with so I don't mind getting yelled at when I deserve it, but very often I don't)

[TheOperator]

A lot of people commenting about this are talking about sensitive people. Although I would never admit to this publicly I am a sensitive person. Getting chewed out in an aggressive tone, getting yelled at, or chewed out for extended periods of time can significantly impact my productivity in spite of my efforts to toughen up. In the workplace I would be that guy after 24:00 who is still diligently accepting feedback but who you can detect the stress levels of due to the length of the feedback and Wolfram's increasing irritation.

Holy shit though people calling the above video bullying have no idea. There's no hint of sadism. There's no hint of using aggression as a persuasive tool. No hint of coercion. He's just irritated and there are visible signs of restraint and attempts to mediate this irritation.

[tempguy9999]

> Although I would never admit to this publicly I am a sensitive person

you say it as if it's a weakness but why? Rhetorical question, but a valid one.

> Getting chewed out in an aggressive tone, getting yelled at, or chewed out for extended periods of time can significantly impact my productivity

Mine too! That stuff can cut deeply; don't imagine it washes off me just because I can usually handle it. I've been left literally shaking after someone's had a go at me, and it has added to my long-term mental health problems. It affects my work very negatively - it deteriorates. I remember wanting to punch myself in the face on the train on the way home I was so upset, less than a year ago. It should not happen.

> in spite of my efforts to toughen up

I really do not know if that's something a person can do to themselves. Or should? I don't mind if I fuck up and get it in the neck but if I get it in the neck cos someone's rowed with their BF last night then I shouldn't have to deal with it at all. But that's life I suppose.

[TheOperator]

There is such a thing as oversensitivity. Something that makes me persue the mildest workplaces working mostly with a small familiar team. If I get tougher I get more oppertunities. So I work to get tougher so I can get what I want.