[zeroname]

> radical unfettered libertarianism doesn't work

I agree.

> No it isn't, because absent laws people tend to do things like break your knees with a lead pipe if you're a union organizer.

You keep dragging things out further and further. Am I led to believe that without laws supporting unions, breaking knees suddenly becomes legal?

> So you agree there's an informational asymmetry, but you put the burden on the weaker party in the transaction to be responsible for the calculation of the costs and effects of it (despite agreeing they don't know as much about it)

I'm not putting the burden on them. The burden is on them, as a pure matter of fact. Every worker is ultimately responsible for the risk they put upon themselves. If they get injured or killed, they are the ones harmed. They're the ones who have to make the call.

Of course an employer that hides information on safety hazards or is otherwise negligent is liable for endangering others.

None of this is specific to trade. You're talking about fraud, coercion and extortion and all kinds of things. It's going nowhere. Of course nobody willfully "consents" to being endangered, defrauded or extorted.

> Again, no thank you. I'd rather have society put together so that people don't need to be an expert in every safety critical expertise in order to avoid harm from others.

You arguing against straw man libertarian, not me.

[ABCLAW]

I had a big issue with glaring contradictions in your position until I re-read your series of posts. I've come to recognize you're conflating multiple related 'responsibility' concepts, swapping into the different modes when it's convenient. It's very similar to how you treated the term 'fair' earlier on. This is a common argument pattern for people who like winning pitched arguments against inexperienced individuals.

Your statements regarding legal responsibility, which is what you were critiquing (remember we're talking about contracts!), are all VERY wrong. But a lay person strolling through the thread wouldn't know it, so maybe your argument seems plausible. Half the time, though, you're not making a 'legal responsibility' argument but rather a 'moral responsibility' argument. The is/ought dichotomy exists, and is a common place where people get tripped up when discussing law.

The rest of the discussion isn't really worth having given that core miscommunication. That said...

>You arguing against straw man libertarian, not me.

You literally doubled down on the same position for three paragraphs in the very same post. lol

[zeroname]

> I've come to recognize you're conflating multiple related 'responsibility' concepts, swapping into the different modes when it's convenient. It's very similar to how you treated the term 'fair' earlier on.

Can you accept that words don't all have one meaning? Maybe you willfully misunderstand what people are saying so that you can win a debate that you started, on your terms? I don't care about "winning" a debate with you. Nobody else is reading this, it's just you and me.

> Your statements regarding legal responsibility...

See, I never made a statement about legal responsibility. You want to talk about legality and law and power and justice and morality. I'm talking about fair market prices.

Of course "fair market prices" aren't going to be "fair" at every possible level of analysis, under every moral framework, in every single instance in the history of mankind.

For you, it's all power games and injustice and exploitation. For me, it's people cooperating voluntarily without centralized control. In my eyes, it all works pretty well. In your eyes, it doesn't and it all needs regulation and intervention. We're not convincing each other otherwise.