[mrbrowning]

This attitude, which I'll paraphrase as "needing any feature that I personally consider unnecessary is a code smell," is endemic to the Go community and a big reason why I still find myself frustrated by it on a daily basis even after a month of using it for a greenfield project. I don't like the language itself, since I'm generally in favor of a language offering more affordances rather than fewer, but it's fine to write in and I'm ultimately concerned with making the pragmatic choice. When I go to look for what the idiomatic way to do something is, though, wow! It's rarely just "this is the way to do it, since the language optimized for a particular use case by making the tradeoff of omitting the usual features for this": instead, it frequently goes on to assert that those features are unnecessary in nearly every case and languages that provide them are wrong, or old-fashioned, or too Academic, or the people that use them don't care about Getting Things Done. Also, throw in a few cargo-culted potshots at Java for good measure! I've used a good number of languages professionally at this point, and the Go orthodoxy is easily the most off-putting I've ever encountered. I don't know why it's become so aggressively totalizing, but it's not a good thing.

[xyzzy_plugh]

I couldn't disagree more. I think it comes down to personal preferences, mostly.

I get so much more done in Go, have fewer maintenance issues, and more frequently collaborate with other folks/contribute to other projects.

> I've used a good number of languages professionally at this point, and the Go orthodoxy is easily the most off-putting I've ever encountered.

I could -- and do -- say the same about the Java ecosystem.

[mrbrowning]

For what it's worth, I don't particularly have a cross to bear with respect to Java. I cited it just because its invocations as a Bad Language bogeyman are common in the Go-focused writings I've found, and those are far out of proportion to its inherent flaws (of which I believe there are many!). I completely agree that it's a matter of preference, which I think is supported by the fact that I found Go to be the best choice of language in the context that I'm operating in whatever my reservations.

I'm confused about your assertion that the Java ecosystem has a similar problem, though, because my sense is both that it has a much less identifiable orthodoxy by virtue of being so widely used across so many domains, and that the new guard, such as it is, is very much in favor of creating libraries and utilities that favor simpler implementations and interfaces contra its "architecture astronaut" baggage.

[xyzzy_plugh]

You make a fair point; I'm not adequately exposed to the Java ecosystem, I mostly end up reading Apache projects.

I guess my remarks could be rearranged as: In general, I find Java, and the JVM friend Scala, to worship Abstraction over simplicity. Complexity is constantly confused for convenience, and that makes me sad. The number of files I need to read to understand _any_ piece of Go, I could likely count on one hand, if even. For the JVM-based approach: dozens, if not more.

Abstractions _in theory_ are great: they reduce the cognitive burden, they simplify behavior, make it easier to rationalize and cast judgement; But in practice, that just isn't true. You _always_ need to peel away the abstraction.

In Go, countless times, I've found myself reading the standard library implementation. Is this good? No, of course not. Ideally, as a consumer, I never need to look under the curtain. Things should just work. But that tends to never be true, and looking under the curtain is an important aspect of computing (c. 1970-1999) that permeates everything we do.

Go makes it really easy to look under the hood, see what's happening, and more-or-less instantly achieve clarity. The only other languages I've ever used that came close were C and C++, and history has demonstrated how well that's worked out.

[geodel]

To add to your point last week I cleaned up a part of project in Java sprawling in 30 or so files with 5 KLOC to 2 Java files and under 1 KLOC of Java code. Now main clean up was using library properly which was already present as dependency for years and removing innumerable level of indirections.

This code was written in really roundabout way in Java tradition where e.g. setName() would call getName() -> initName() -> initClassName() -> getDefaultClassName() -> initDefaultClassName() just to set one damn string value. And believe me this getName() function would get called grand total of one time in whole project.

And it was possible for me to do so because learning and writing Go made me confident that straightforward code is not a sign of junior/inexperienced developer. Because in Java it will be exactly that if you do not bury the actual logic in ten levels of abstract crap.

[int_19h]

GP isn't saying that Go is not productive, but that the community has an irrationally hostile attitude towards anything that is not possible, or easy, in the language.

And I agree - it has become the prime example of "you're holding it wrong" school of programming language design and apologetics.

[pjmlp]

To the point that if someone would take the hard work to try fork and implement the features some consider missing, they would be burned on the fire instead of praised for their work, which is why anyone with the skills of doing it just goes elsewhere instead.

[geodel]

Do you think really Java or any other professional language would accept some language feature which was developed prior to explicit approval from committers?

If someone thinks since they have developed feature and put lot of hardwork in it so language maintainers have to merge it. I am sure they would have no option but to invent their own language.

[pjmlp]

Yes, that is how a large majority of contributions work.

Language improvement proposals aren't taken in just with words on paper.

[Gibbon1]

What I found off putting is they lie about what they are doing by claiming there are 'technical' reasons[1] it has to be that way. When other languages prove that's utter BS.

I'd have more respect if they just came out and said, this style cause hey we don't want conflicts over style and since our language our way or highway. And this feature is abused a lot in other languages (we think) so we omitted it.

[1] I hate that programmers habitually lie about technical issues, especially to management and others. Because those people are as dumb as programmers think. It's why your non technical manager doesn't trust you.