[cletus]

Weird. This article doesn't mention what (IMHO) is one of the biggest factors impacting pedestrian and cyclist safety: the ability in almost all of the US to turn right at red lights.

I live in NYC where this is illegal in the five boroughs. Weirdly I've met more than a few people who live here who didn't know this. You will come across drivers who don't know this too occasionally who'll give you attitude if you walk when you have right of way.

I've visited the Bay Area a lot and honestly I'm terrified of being a pedestrian or cyclist there. When a car hits a red light and wants to turn right the driver will naturally just look left for oncoming traffic. In doing so they'll not be able to see pedestrian coming from the right who might need to cross the road there and they seem more oblivious to cyclists coming from the left.

Couple that with roads that are typically much wider and you feel like you're taking your life in your hands every time you cross the road. In Palo Alto there's a crosswalk across El Camino where it's 6 lanes (IIRC). Not in a million years could you convince me to use it. You just don't know how drivers are going to react. Will they see you? Will they stop for you? Who knows? It's better to cross where there isn't one so you can predict car movement.

I don't know how the US ended up with this turning right at a red light rule. I haven't personally been in another country where this is the case. But I can't think of a more anti-pedestrian and anti-cyclist rule than this.

[tom_]

It's the opposite way round - I think it's the Coriolis effect - but you can turn left on red in at least some parts of Australia.

[jboles]

It's not comparable. A right turn on red is allowed at traffic lights in the US, unless signposted otherwise. A left turn on red is disallowed at traffic lights in Australia, unless signposted otherwise.

I think the latter (default disallowed) is safer, because the sign permitting turn on red states that the turn is only permitted after stopping. On the other hand, drivers in the US blow through their right turns on red, usually not stopping, and with impunity.

[tom_]

Thanks - that's a useful clarification. It was a while ago that I visited, and while I do drive, and regularly, I didn't drive while there.

Obviously I failed to miss this "subtlety" ;) - good evidence, as if any were needed, which of course it isn't, that drivers can't be trusted.

[jboles]

I nearly got hit just this morning by someone blowing through a right turn on red. If they get that close to me that I am in range to, I will hit or kick their car ;)

[b1r6]

The reason we "ended up with this turning right at a red light rule" is simply that it is more efficient, and transportation is by definition architected for efficiency. It's the same reason we have more flashing yellow turn lights these days, because you shouldn't be stuck sitting at a red light in a turn lane when it's extremely visually obvious that there are no obstructions preventing you from proceeding.

In the world of marine navigation, baked into many rules and courtesies, is the idea that larger vessels are to be offered right of way over small vessels. Because small vessels are both more able to perceive the current situation, and more able to avoid mishaps.

Paradoxically, pedestrians often have the right of way always, despite the car being far less maneuverable, less perceptive of it's surroundings, and far more dangerous to collide with.

This negation of the common-sense logic found in marine navigation is why our streets are always reported as "becoming more dangerous".

[cletus]

> The reason we "ended up with this turning right at a red light rule" is simply that it is more efficient

For whom? Drivers? Is any consideration for those who cannot or do not drive to be sacrificed at the Altar of the Automobile because cars?

> This negation of the common-sense logic found in marine navigation is why our streets are always reported as "becoming more dangerous".

The major difference I find between those who pilot boats (and aircraft) vs those who drive is how serious the former take their responsibility.

I met a UPS pilot once who we got to talking to and he said that he doesn't drink anything alcoholic within 12 hours of flying. That's clearly more precautious than he needs to be but this anecdote highlights the point of how serious this guy took his responsibility.

Compare this to drivers who routinely:

- Speed dangerously

- Drive while intoxicated

- Text or otherwise get distracted by their phones while driving

- Drive in spite of medical advice to the contrary [1]

- Run red lights

- Speed up when lights turn orange (knowing they'll be red when they pass through the intersection) as some lie to themselves that they couldn't stop (as a pedestrian I can nearly always tell lights are changing because I hear cars accelerate).

- Don't maintain their vehicles

All while being at the helm of two tonnes of metal hurtling down a highway at 85mph (with a speed limit of 55mph), all while tens of thousands of people die on the roads every year in the US.

A defense of some of these is "what choice do they have (but to drive)?" Well, that's the result of a society that is so totally geared towards car ownership.

So excuse me if "efficiency" for drivers isn't my primary concern.

[1] https://www.etonline.com/driver-charged-in-death-of-ruthie-a...

[pcsanwald]

I would upvote this by 1000 if I could. I lived in the bay area for 2 years, and one way streets + right on red is a recipe for disaster for pedestrians because drivers will never look to their right.

Interestingly, people in SF rarely jaywalk, and I wonder if it's related to this.

[joshe]

I love jaywalking in SF just for this reason. I'm usually crossing in the middle of a block. I can see all the cars and I know where they are going. Plus I wait for lights much less often.

[cletus]

Yep, same. I believe there's been studies on these kinds of things, like the insanity of jaywalking laws as pedestrians tend to be safest when they cross streets when they don't have right of way as they're far more likely to be aware of their surroundings and cautious, particularly when the stakes for the pedestrian are much higher than the driver (ie an accident will tend to end worse for the pedestrian than the car or the driver).

[rhinoceraptor]

Also, the term jaywalking itself was invented by car companies to absolve drivers of the deaths they cause.