[jbarberu]

Having recently moved to Florida from Sweden, I was shocked at how biker/pedestrian hostile it is here. I naively thought I'd be able to live a more active lifestyle because of the nicer weather, but instead I'm driving a car everywhere as I wouldn't feel safe on a bike.

It seems to be a pretty vicious cycle of the infrastructure being hostile to biking so nobody does it, nobody is biking so the roads are optimized for driving.

I've lived here for little over a year now and I've been _almost_ hit a couple of times while crossing the road at the crosswalk, and a few times at parking lots with drivers not looking back before reversing. I've also seen a dead cyclist in the intersection just outside my apartment complex :(

[sethhochberg]

Florida is a perfect storm of retirees who should have had their licenses revoked years ago, car-centric exurban non-planning, big trucks as culture, and weather so hot and prone to unexpected storms that few people cycle for anything other than recreation and thus most riders are seen as ridiculous wannabe racers, or just some drunk who lost their drivers' license. Everything is spread out and connected by 6-lane divided highways with bike lanes "generously" thrown into the shoulder by FDOT, and everyone is distracted by their phones because they're bored because they spend enormous amounts of time sitting in traffic.

I lived in Florida for most of my early life, was car-free for a lot of it, and don't miss riding there at all. The cycling community in Miami used to joke that in the rest of the country, you ride like you're invisible - but in South Florida, you ride like the drivers can see you and are actively trying to kill you. Stay safe.

[dmonagha]

Native and lived in Florida most of my life as well. Everything you just said was true. There was a guy in my hometown, very well known surfer who was killed by a speeding car simply while waiting to cross the street. We have ghost bikes everywhere as well.

[toomuchtodo]

Florida is rated the most dangerous state for pedestrians.

[randcraw]

The video in the OP says it's Arizona. Or maybe more are killed there while more are simply maimed in FL.

Much of the problem isn't snowbirds. It's the low rate of prosecution for vehicular manslaughter. Southern states seems especially tolerant of driver irresponsibility, perhaps because the victim is perceived as 'an outsider' -- i.e. not someone cluelessly driving a giant SUV.

[toomuchtodo]

Other states might be more dangerous if you take into account incidents that don't result in loss of life, but Florida has the highest rate of fatalities per 100k people.

https://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/article224923045.html

"Walking may be hazardous to your health. In Florida, the risk of fatality on foot is significantly higher than in any other state.

Nine of the 20 deadliest U.S. cities for pedestrians are in Florida, with Orlando ranked as least safe and the Miami-Fort Lauderdale-West Palm Beach metropolis ranked No. 14 in the 2019 “Dangerous By Design” report from Smart Growth America and the National Complete Streets Coalition."

If you like walking or biking, don't move to Florida.

[emj]

No walking is NOT hazardous to you health, even if there are 10 times as many pedestrians deaths in Florida compared to Sweden it will still be a net positive to have people walking around.

[cmurf]

>Southern states seems especially tolerant of driver irresponsibility

If you're white, perhaps. As a matter of public policy, this form of institutional racism is a way more effective way of producing a desired outcome: coming down hard on people of color while letting white people off easy. The incidence of fatal escalation of routine traffic stops is way higher with people of color.

[enraged_camel]

What is a "ghost bike"?

[tapland]

A bike, often painted white, placed to remember a person killed while biking on that spot.

[bloomca]

> Florida is a perfect storm of retirees who should have had their licenses revoked years ago

Ha, that is so true – I live in a town with average age of 55, and indeed, a lot of people drive the way they would not get the license under any circumstances. I was at local DMV, and there are bunch of (old) people who moved here recently, and they need to get a new license. They don't have to pass a drive test, just a knowledge test. Still, they fail at least several times in a row (I heard about 5+, 3+ attempts).

[cylinder]

Texas is the same or worse. Much of the postWW2 US is the same actually.

[justaguyhere]

An old lady looked at me straight in the eye while not slowing down her car and I jumped at the last moment. There is a video of a cop car hitting a cyclist and then arresting him for their mistake. I've lived in places where there are no sidewalks whatsoever. Basically you can either drive a car or sit at home. Most US city infrastructure and most drivers are not fond of pedestrians and cyclists.

[jetrink]

Another anecdote about Florida: I bike almost every day during good weather in Chicago and though I know it isn't the safest activity, I've never had a serious incident. I traveled to Florida last Fall and was struck by a car on my very first bike ride there. I was on a dedicated bike path that was separated from the road by a grass strip and was hit by a car turning into a driveway. It was 11am on a sunny day, but the person didn't see me. (The person was not elderly, so I believe he was probably distracted by his phone.)

[randcraw]

I'm guessing the driver faced almost no penalty for running you down. That's the main reason this problem persists, IMHO, no serious consequences for the cretins.

Go to jail or lose your license for a year plus impound your car -- only that kind of response will save pedestrian lives.

[WorldMaker]

In the US it is interesting to compare the AAA to the NRA, in terms of the amount of lobbying they've done over the decades to avoid serious repercussions in driving accidents and as much as possible shift blames to pedestrians, including the long interesting weird history of creating the "crime" of jaywalking.

https://www.salon.com/2015/08/20/the_secret_history_of_jaywa...

[hnick]

Normal people would feel bad for doing this though and try to avoid hurting people, wouldn't they? Or am I the strange one here...?

[kevin_thibedeau]

You were on a glorified sidewalk. This is why separated facilities with grade crossings are dangerous because you exist outside the cone of attention of cagers who aren't expecting a 20MPH+ vehicle on the sidewalk.

[cr1895]

>separated facilities with grade crossings are dangerous

On the whole they are much safer.

https://library.swov.nl/action/front/fulltext?id=340421

[ovi256]

>grade crossings

Grade crossings are everywhere in the Netherlands, but bikes have the right of way, and drivers and pedestrians don't, and that's also how the justice system judges things.

In most US states afaik, the legal incentives are definitely not there to care about bikers.

[ams6110]

Cars turning right across another lane of traffic (the bike lane) is the problem. It's just a very accident-prone way to arrange the lanes.

The reality is in America drivers are not accustomed to bikes passing them on the right when they are turning right. It certainly wasn't part of anything I learned in driver's training (though that was quite a while ago). I honestly could not tell you who has the right of way in that situation. Might vary by state.

So if you're cycling in America and you don't want to get hit, pay close attention to the cars on your left at crossings. Assume they don't see you. In fact as a general rule, assume the cars don't see you.

That's the main reason I rarely cycle in traffic. Too risky, and right-of-way or not, if a car hits a bike, the bike loses.

[bloomca]

> The reality is in America drivers are not accustomed to bikes passing them on the right when they are turning right. It certainly wasn't part of anything I learned in driver's training

In modern Oregon's DMV driver's book they specify this case and tell you that they have the right of way, they also include this question in the test. Not sure how it helps on the roads to cyclers, but at least they teach about it.

[brewdad]

Cyclists in a bike lane in Oregon always have right of way, meaning right-turning cars must yield to approaching bikes before turning, with one GIANT caveat. Judicial rulings have come down stating that the bike lane does not continue into an intersection since there is no paint delineating the bike lane. The one part of the road where a cyclist is most vulnerable to getting hit is also the one stretch where a cyclist has no legal protection. It's madness.

[nybble41]

> Cars turning right across another lane of traffic (the bike lane) is the problem.

It may vary by state, but at least here in Iowa cars are supposed to merge into the bike lane (as far as possible) before turning right, not turn across it. This is the same as any other situation where you have two lanes of traffic going the same direction—you start your right turn from the rightmost lane. Bikes are expected to pass turning cars on the left in the regular traffic lane, not on the right.

[magduf]

>Having recently moved to Florida from Sweden, I was shocked at how biker/pedestrian hostile it is here.

Sorry if this sounds rude, but this was a surprise to you? I thought everyone in Europe realized how bicycle/pedestrial-hostile US cities are. Did you not come here first to check things out before committing to a cross-Atlantic move?

And seriously, Sweden is one of the top countries on the quality-of-life indices. The US is definitely not. Why would you leave there to come here? That's like me leaving the US and moving to El Salvador, thinking it'll somehow be nicer. (This is a valid comparison: compare the murder rates of Sweden vs. US to US vs. El Salvador.)

[jbarberu]

>Sorry if this sounds rude

It does, a little bit, but that's ok.

No, it wasn't a surprise that it wasn't as bike friendly as Sweden. My comment was I was shocked at how extremely hostile Florida in particular was. I hadn't been to Florida prior to moving here. I committed to move away from Sweden because my wife couldn't stand it any more, the social aspects of Sweden are not all that peachy. It's really hard to break through the social barriers and make friends there. I had visited other parts of the US which I really did like, but we ended up here for work. We'll spend a few years here and then leave for some greener grass.

Having gone on some road trips my observation is it varies a lot by state. Tennessee is one of my favorites down south and D.C metro area is quite nice if you avoid the city center.

[goostavos]

Ex-Floridian here. I spent my formative years there. No amount of research could have prepared you for our hostility towards bikers. In my youth we'd actively try to mess with (shout at, drive obnoxiously close to, etc..) bicyclers for having the arrogance to (a) exist, and (b) use our roads.

If we saw a biker out and about, it was pretty much guaranteed that they'd get a finger as I rocketed by in my car. This was just a thing that everyone did. I don't know why we were so self-righteous and angry about road usage.

As what is surely punishment for my past sins, I now commute via bicycle every day now. Even in a 'bike friendly' city like Seattle, I still get cars that play the "I'm gunna clip you!" scare game that I used to do to others as a teenager. Young me was a huge moron.

[magduf]

>Tennessee is one of my favorites down south and D.C metro area is quite nice if you avoid the city center.

Tennessee is not at all bike-friendly, and pay there is generally very low.

What's wrong with the city center in DC? The city center is mostly very gentrified and rather expensive, particularly on the west side. Stay away from the southeast part at night though, but most other parts are pretty good.

>I committed to move away from Sweden because my wife couldn't stand it any more, the social aspects of Sweden are not all that peachy.

Are you and your wife native Swedes? I could see non-natives complaining about not fitting into a place like that, but if you grew up there it should be different.

Did you think about moving to other European countries? If you're looking for something friendlier than Sweden but still liveable and bikeable and pedestrian-friendly and with a social safety net and low crime, there's lots of options in the rest of Europe. Why would you want to move instead to a country where there's more guns than people and you have to worry about being killed either by criminals or in a car wreck?

[rmdashrfstar]

Can you elaborate on what you mean about the social aspects of Sweden not being peachy? Many people in the US describe Sweden as a utopia for Americans looking for a new foreign country to call home... any input on that sentiment would be appreciated.

[jbarberu]

My wife is American, she came to study in Sweden, I'm a native. She lived in Sweden for 7 years and was struggling to learn the language, people are very insistent on speaking English if they hear that's your native language. That's nice and all, but it makes it hard to fully become part of society. The biggest issue is the individualism bordering on egotism, people just don't want to deal with strangers.

Being half-Spanish I often compare to that culture. Over there you'll see kids, teenagers, adults and old people hanging out in bars together at 1am on the weekends. Over in Sweden you're supposed to stay locked up in your apartment after 6pm once you're past your 70s.

If you're seriously considering moving away from the US I'd suggest looking at Norway, which seems like a much friendlier place to me.

[tapland]

You do not talk to others in public. You do not meet new people at the gym, at bars, at anywhere. If you are lucky you work in a small startup-office where employees go drink after work on fridays and where you can get to know them.

American tourists can be heard over all other sound in the metro- and trainstations in Stockholm because the natural level of noise-making is so different.

[selestify]

How do people meet other people to date then?

[magduf]

I don't actually know, but I'm going to hazard a guess that it's the same as in the US: dating apps. How else could you possibly meet people to date? This isn't a joke question, because I honestly have no idea.

The standard ways of meeting partners, according to surveys, have been: school, work, church, friends, family, bars, online. School isn't possible if you're not a student any more (i.e., most everyone over 25), work is generally frowned upon and pretty limited unless your workplace has a lot of turnover (which is bad for other reasons!), church isn't useful if you're not religious (as is the case for Sweden I'm sure), friends and family have limited social circles of singles, and bars are a great place to meet alcoholics. The surveys I've read for dating in America have shown that all these methods (except maybe school) have been declining for a long time, while online has become the #1 method.

[bobl]

To be fair I think it is worse these days than it could be. Over the last 50 years or so Sweden developed a form of egalitarian individualism, which has made social interaction a bit peculiar. But today there is rising inequality which has turned some of that individualism into egoism. At the same time there are a lot of people moving in or out of cities, breaking up friend groups and leaving small towns to their faith. Swedes do quite well socially when it comes to things like non profit clubs. Now everyone is trying to be "international" which most Swedes aren't good at as they are far too concerned about what other people think.

[geodel]

I think people keep 2 compartments in brain and never let them interact. E.g. when it comes to salaries it goes like why the hell European/ canadian companies do not pay like US companies. And when it comes to personal life or health they go like why is US so hostile for health care, vacations.

[JadeNB]

While your first paragraph is apposite to the post:

> Sorry if this sounds rude, but this was a surprise to you? I thought everyone in Europe realized how bicycle/pedestrial-hostile US cities are. Did you not come here first to check things out before committing to a cross-Atlantic move?

surely the proper answer to:

> And seriously, Sweden is one of the top countries on the quality-of-life indices. The US is definitely not. Why would you leave there to come here?

is "none of your business", and the answer to:

> That's like me leaving the US and moving to El Salvador, thinking it'll somehow be nicer.

is that the grandparent didn't say he or she expected the US to be nicer than Sweden, only implied an expectation that it would be less cyclist-hostile than it (the US) actually is.

[ams6110]

The US dwarfs Sweden in size and cultural diversity. There are many places to live in the US that are as nice or nicer than Sweden. There are many places that are not.

[magduf]

There is no place in the US that beats Sweden on metrics like quality of life and healthcare affordability. These things are nationally driven, and there are no US states with socialized healthcare.

[jbarberu]

Life quality for none-Swedes is anecdotally not that great, at least not according to the Americans I got to know in Sweden.

Yes, the fact you won't be financially ruined by health issues is nice. The wait times and quality of care in Sweden left some to be desired.

[contrahax]

IMO most people would not consider healthcare affordability as a factor in where they want to live, or even a major factor in their quality of life. NYC (as one example) is famously expensive across the board for all types of insurance, healthcare, housing, food, etc. but still has hordes of people who want to live there.

As an aside - New York State did launch a universal healthcare program recently, and I believe Colorado has something in the works on that front too.

[g_sch]

New York City recently launched a health insurance program that seeks to cover everyone in the city and offers low-cost options. It's not, however, a single-payer program. [0]

New York State does not have any statewide health insurance program yet, universal or otherwise. However, the New York Health Act (which would create a statewide single-payer insurance program) has passed the State Assembly four years in a row and stands a good chance of finally passing the Senate this year as well. [1]

[0] https://cityandstateny.com/articles/policy/health-care/bill-... [1] https://www.nyhcampaign.org/

[contrahax]

Thanks for the clarification - I live here but haven't been keeping up with it recently.

[loeg]

> there are no US states with socialized healthcare.

So, not MA then? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_health_care_refo...

Or Vermont, temporarily: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_health_care_reform

[bobl]

Sweden probably has a slightly undeserved reputation in this area. These days mainly the financing is socialized, which is still something. The services themselves are privatized. So the quality can vary wildly depending on location and provider. Or even almost randomly. It is more similar to a capitalist system in that regard. I think maybe Norway or Finland might be better examples of countries offering egalitarian service today.

[vardump]

I've heard this pretty often, and intuitively it sounds like it might be true. However, do you have any references about that?

[sfopdxnonstop]

Are you asking for a reference that the USA has more diverse demographics than Sweden? That's gonna be a lmgtfy.

[loeg]

The US is a huge country and has a broad range of pedestrian/cycle-friendly infrastructure — Florida in particular is among the worst.

[magduf]

I think you're really whitewashing things. A better description would be that the US is a huge country with a few, select metro areas that are pedestrian/cycle-friendly (and even then, only in certain parts), while the vast majority of the country is very unfriendly to them.

[loeg]

I never claimed the majority of the US was great for bicycling; just that Florida was exceptionally bad. I think maybe you read more into that statement than was actually present. (I think I understand the confusion — I intended to say there was a broad range of infrastructure friendliness.)

[cainxinth]

Florida has pretty bad drivers. They are the 8th worst state according to this list: https://smartasset.com/checking-account/states-with-the-wors...

I think it's because it's a state with a lot of transplants (such as yourself) so you have a big mix of driving styles all interacting and they sometimes clash.

[jbarberu]

I've also lived in Spain for a short time, which isn't exactly known for their great drivers. Central Florida is worse by miles. People stare at their phones while moving (at a light is bad enough, but at least you won't hit anyone), they drive with about a car's length of distance while going 45mph, shifting lanes without using their signals and other crazy shenanigans.

I'm just astounded by the complete disregard for other humans while they're in their cars. This is one of the biggest reason me and my wife are looking to resettle elsewhere in a couple of years.

[graywh]

> they drive with about a car's length of distance while going 45mph, shifting lanes without using their signals and other crazy shenanigans

this shit happens everywhere

[magduf]

It's worse in some places than others. Oregon, for instance, is famous for its drivers being too polite.

[rconti]

That's Washington. Oregon drivers are aggressive like Californians, don't signal, but then drive ungodly slow just like the overly polite Washingtonians.

An Oregonian will cut you off without signalling, then drive 52mph.

[loeg]

Nah. It's definitely worse in some places than others. In Michigan, people would go 80-85 mph with 1-2 car lengths between them. California is notorious for not using turn signals before lane shifts (and my experience matched that reputation). I would say both of these experiences are quantifiably different from my experience driving in Washington (though I do not have such numbers).

[dsfyu404ed]

There's two kinds of "bad" drivers. There's "the insurance company does not like it when you drive this way because you will likely cost them money" bad drivers and there's "legitimately doing a poor or ineffective job at accomplishing the task of driving". Weaving through traffic at +20 and passing on the inside in a rotary are examples of the former. Paying more attention to your phone than to driving is an example of the latter.

Florida by nature of it's popularity with tourists and retirees has a lot of the latter. Most people drive about average. When the local average is dragged down by hordes of tourists and retirees even the people who wouldn't otherwise drive that way do so because it's what's normal around them.

[loeg]

Huh? Insurance companies and the law have similar goals w.r.t. preventing personal injury and property damage. I'm not sure how you define a 2nd kind of bad that isn't just some subset of that.

Weaving through traffic at 20 over the speed limit and making illegal and surprising passes is an example of something insurance doesn't like, and doing a poor/ineffective job of driving.

[vkou]

There's a tonne of tourists driving in Hawaii, and yet, I've never had that bad an experience driving there.

Actually, that's not true. Highway 360 on Maui (The road to Hana) was the most terrifying driving I've ever seen, but that is due to the state of the road, and the familiarity (and lack of interest in spending more time then they have to on it) of the locals.

[magduf]

That's not why. I live in the DC area, and everyone here is from somewhere else (many from outside the country). People are still much more polite here, and it's much more pedestrian-friendly than in other metro areas, particular Florida.

[francisofascii]

Planners often cite the lack of cyclists as an excuse not to create bicycle infrastructure, and fail the acknowledge the reason is due to the danger, rather than the desire to bike.

[rhinoceraptor]

Also, a lot of the existing bike infrastructure is just awful. They put bike lanes next to parked cars, paint sharrows instead of building real bike lanes, and pedestrian islands on roads with no bike lane, that make passing cyclists safely impossible.

[bloomca]

> I naively thought I'd be able to live a more active lifestyle because of the nicer weather, but instead I'm driving a car everywhere as I wouldn't feel safe on a bike.

It is super ironic, I agree. USA has a lot of room for activities, but the irony is that you have to _drive_ to them. Yes, you have to drive somewhere first, and when do what you want. Wants to run? Well, big chance you need to drive to some park. Wants to cycle? There is a chance you don't want to do straight from your house (like I have to go on a highway, which is not the best idea to cycle on).

> I've lived here for little over a year now and I've been _almost_ hit a couple of times while crossing the road at the crosswalk, and a few times at parking lots with drivers not looking back before reversing.

In USA, I recommend to walk in the middle of the parking lot (always!). This way you'll have time to react to any hazardous situations. Yes, some might honk at you, but better safe than sorry.

[0xCMP]

I have a personal conviction too that anywhere in South Florida which figures out how to change focus to walking/biking safely will reap very nice appreciation in real estate and taxes.

Yes, the weather is very hot, but the issue is not the heat but the fact everything is so far away and there isn't a safe way either-way of getting there without a car.

I'm a fan of how I understand Japanese zoning works + some of the stuff they're trying in Spain to ban cars in some areas.

[nikk1]

St Pete is bike/pedestrian friendly relative to other parts of Florida, and I think it's getting better. I actually think that is one reason why the area has been growing so much over the past decade. There is actually a bike trail [1], which was made by paving over an old railway track. I used to take that trail to bike to downtown, and it was extremely safe.

In contrast, I now live in a newer FL city on the Space Coast that is currently booming. Seeing all of the car-friendly development makes me cringe. Nothing is in walking distance. Traffic is terrible. A man backed into me at a stoplight. I have to take a shuttle from my company's parking lot to my building because we have to accommodate so many vehicles, despite the fact that many employees live within an acceptable biking distance.

[1] http://www.pinellascounty.org/trailgd/

[mancerayder]

What kills me isn't just the stuff that people are complaining about in the U.S. regarding existing conditions...

It's that new development isn't, and I hate to use this word, progressive. Don't people WANT to be able to walk around, sit outside and so on, get to work quickly, etc. How can the answer to that be no?

The obesity epidemic is extremely tied to this misguided way of continuing to build cities.

[nikk1]

It's a reinforcing feedback loop: new cities are developed to accommodate cars -> more people own/drive cars because of the city's design -> repeat.

It's a type of trap that leads to these undesired effects. I do not see much changing until self-driving cars change the dynamics of how US society thinks about cars and transportation.

[jessaustin]

https://www.thevillages.com/

Of course that's only available to Boomers. "We've ruined most of society; let's find a place we haven't touched in which to hide from the consequences!"

[sethhochberg]

The city of Miami Beach (not the city of Miami on the mainland) really does try, and I think they're doing a lot right - decent transit as a side effect of a tiny geographical area, lots of emphasis on walking and cycling and having a healthy populace, progressive environmental policies, etc... but they're a relatively tiny and extremely expensive locale, so their successes aren't exactly broadly enjoyable.

[jak92]

Probably the best place to cycle in South Florida. Then again, it is a true urban area and very walkable.

[seanmcdirmid]

You would have been better off in California or anywhere out west actually. The humid weather alone makes Florida not a great place for cycling, and the culture dooms the rest of any aspirations.

[AndyMcConachie]

I moved from The Netherlands to the USA then moved back to The Netherlands. Part of the reason for moving back was exactly this.

[maxxxxx]

" I naively thought I'd be able to live a more active lifestyle because of the nicer weather"

The Florida lifestyle is to drive from air conditioned place to air conditioned place in your car. I am exaggerating but you should try ORegon or Washington for a more active lifestyle.

[dmonagha]

>The Florida lifestyle is to drive from air conditioned place to air conditioned place in your car. I am exaggerating but you should try ORegon or Washington for a more active lifestyle.

On the coasts people are very active. True the median age is much higher however they usually move to the coast to enjoy being outside year round.

[lenocinor]

West coast is not so active and I lived there a long time. Can't speak for the east coast though.

[loeg]

Also, California has many good places to be active if you like the FL heat but not the humidity.

[jtms]

Born and raised in northern FL, fled north to escape all this and more the second I graduated college.

[overcast]

Did you research the weather before moving to Florida? The majority of the year it is oppressively hot and humid. Nothing a Scandinavian is even remotely used to.

[jak92]

thank the State DOT.

[magduf]

The DOT is part of the state government, and as such responds to the voters. This problem is caused by the residents of Florida ultimately.