[kenhwang]

This article seems to be written using results from a J.D. Power report. J.D. Power's methodology is commonly known to be extremely flawed in that they weigh all "issues" equally. So an engine failure is the same severity as Bluetooth not connecting.

Furthermore, tiebreakers are broken in pretty nonsense ways, and many suspect it's by whoever pays the most. For example, they crowned Buick the most dependable brand, but by their own ratings, both Lexus and Porsche scored higher.

If you rank by only mechanical dependability by their own numbers, the ranking is as follows (alphabetical w/in tiers):

10: Lexus, Toyota

9: BMW, Buick, Chevrolet, Hyundai, Infiniti, Kia, Lincoln, Mazda, Mercedes, Nissan, Porsche

8: Audi, Ford, Honda, Jaguar, Mini, Subaru, Volkswagen, Volvo

7: Acura, Cadillac, Dodge, Fiat, GMC, Mitsubishi, Ram

5: Chrysler, Jeep, Land Rover.

So the old adage still holds true for mechanical reliability, Japanese > German/European > American/British.

Also, the luxury brand of an automaker falls pretty damn close to where the non-luxury brand lands: Lexus/Toyota, Buick/Chevy, Hyundai/Kia, Infiniti/Nissan, Audi/Volkswagen, Cadillac/GMC, Fiat/Dodge/Ram, Chrysler/Jeep. Which would make sense since they share mechanical parts, but not infotainment/luxury features. When infotainment/luxury features are factored into the dependability score, it leads to the conclusion the article is trying to draw.

[thorwasdfasdf]

But, you gotta understand that's for the first 3 years only and the consumer reports is only for the first 10 years.

Once you get beyond 10 years, any mechanic will tell you the European cars are absolute garbage. Especially BMW, Audi and Mercedes will self destruct at some point after 10 years. And those parts cost a heck of a lot more than non-luxury brands. Sometimes, they won't even sell you a part by its own piece so you have to buy the whole assembly for 1000$ even if all you need is a tiny part that's supposed to cost no more than 50$.

[kw71]

Last quarter I quit my job at one of the world's largest automakers and for twelve years I've had a small business on the side that serves specialist mechanics of all kinds, so I talk to dealership and indy mechanics all the time. I think you need a lot more experience with automobiles before you are qualified to say such things.

I have a 22 year old 3 and a 26 year old 5. Neither have ever been in the shop for anything but tires. It's not fair or accurate to lump this in the same bucket as vw or mbz. I have bought quite a few parts from the dealer that cost less than $1, like plastic rivets or clips that I broke in the process of getting to something else. Toyota and VW want almost ten bucks for these sometimes. GM won't sell them to you. But my coolant is cheapest at the mbz dealer.

Unlike japanese makes, for anything that people have a need to replace, the original parts are sold on the aftermarket at fair prices. For my toyota, if I want a ball joint, I have to pay three times what it should cost at the dealer parts desk, or deal with junk from the aftermarket - and it's all junk. Datsuns, honda, same boat. Mazda, you're lucky if they even support your car anymore.

[kenhwang]

You're conflating cost of ownership with frequency of issues (reliability). The Germans don't break often, but when they do, it'll cost a bunch. American cars break continuously, but it's cheap and easy to fix.

[amyjess]

Also, Americans and Germans have different definitions of "reliable".

Americans define "reliable" as "runs forever on zero maintenance". Germans define "reliable" as "runs forever as long as you stick to strict maintenance schedules".

[rjplatte]

I like the antifragile definition more. Go ahead and try to kill a 2008 Crown Vic. :)

[njarboe]

Your car gets better the more you abuse it? Could be true if you replace broken parts with better ones.

[davio]

Google "Audi service position" for the visual explanation of German car repair costs

[headmelted]

Or dare I say anything made by PSA.

Very tempting cars with some of the nicest tech you'll find anywhere for as long as it stays working..

[headmelted]

Given that a Lexus is a fancy Toyota, this doesn't surprise.

I had it explained to me once by a MOT tester (a safety and emissions test in the UK that cars more than four years old must undergo annually) while my old Corolla was on the ramp that Toyota's process basically involves hardening parts from the last model for the most popular defects, with as little re-design work of the internal components between generations as possible. I have no idea if the chap knew what he was talking about or not but it would certainly seem to stand up to my own anecdotal scrutiny - the car is 18 years old and still drives like new (it stayed in the extended family), which is more than can be said for the Renault that replaced it >:-(

[thorwasdfasdf]

Toyotas are extremely reliably, especially in the long term. In the long term, toyotas beat anything out there even hondas.

[rjplatte]

My 315k mile 2005 Prius agrees. I got it, replaced the traction battery, got new struts, and bam, new car. I've had it for 60k miles, and I've spent more on oil changes than any repairs besides the initial outlay.

[alvern]

My 2006 Prius is at 388k. I've promised myself I wouldn't get another car until this one quits. But, it just won't die. I've also priced out getting an EV for my 42 mile commute but the ROI is not there compared to a used-paid for high mileage Prius.

[gonzo]

it's the antithesis of a Prius, but my 1992 Landcruiser with 362K miles is still on the road, and until recently, daily-driven. Daily driver now is a 1997 Landcruiser, with 172K miles.

[lb1lf]

AOL. (I have two - daily driver is a 20 year old KZJ95 with some 220k miles to its name - I have owned it for the past six years (80k miles) - it has cost me less in parts and labour than wife's 2012 VW Passat 3c which has covered less than 20k miles in the same time. The Passat wins on gas mileage, though. Cough.)

The other is a 1981 BJ42. For the first 35 years of its life, it was owned by a utility company which put more than 420k miles on it doing HV line inspections. Still just works. As long as I can keep the rust worm from taking hold, this thing will outlive me.

[dgzl]

Now that's a beautiful rig.

[ivalm]

If you look at GP, hondas are not particularly reliable by either metric discussed. Even american Chevies rank higher.

[ip26]

They always seemed well made but weirdly designed.

[southphillyman]

Not sure what year the shift started but Hondas stopped getting high ratings for reliability some time in the 2000s. I retired my 2002 Civic with 250K miles on it a couple of years ago.

[thorwasdfasdf]

honda is having some issues with some of their newer models (too many changes leading to more faults). But, after 10 years, I bet hondas still rank really high.

[kenhwang]

Every Acura and just about every Honda North America buys is made in USA now. But yes, their latest 1.5T engine has a tendency to grenade itself in cold weather or frequent short trips.

[baybal2]

A very different story in China. Chinese made Toyotas are horrid, possibly worst cars on the market, completely opposite of imported ones.

[iambateman]

My 19 year old Toyota agrees. It runs just about as well now as it did 10 years ago.

[potta_coffee]

I have a Subaru beater with ~250k on it, it's going strong. Have had Toyotas with almost 300k miles on them before selling the car for ~1k bucks. I love Japanese cars. I have a Dodge Caravan, at 140k miles the thing is about ready for the junk pile.

[shadowbannedtoo]

Yea, older Toyotas are really dependable. Late 80's, and early 90's are dead simple. Make sure it's a manual tranny.

I'm in the process of buying a newer car/truck for a family member, and it's depressing. So many sensors, and computers that dealership mechanics barely comprehend.

I understand it's for emissions, but so many of those sensors are for comfort systems, and selling gizmos. The problem being is when they malfunction. A dealership mechanic will not tell a customer we are basically learning on your new computer on wheels, but they put that in the price to fix.

I went to automotive school in the ninties, and these new vechicles still scare me.

My trusty Snap-on Mt2500 is practically useless on newer vechicles.

And there will ge the guy whom claims, "I just plug a scan tool in, and that lovely system (CAN Bus system, and multiple computers), just spit out a PID, and the fix is found."

It's just so much more complicated.

On a positive note, my New Years resolution is trying to master these new electrical systems.

There's a market for a simple vechicle, like older Toyotas.

I don't see any company offering a simple vechicle? And yes, I understand emissions are a problem, but it doesn't seem like an impossible problem to get a manual four banger, with just the basics on the market.

And I won't get started on automatic transmission problems.

Sorry for the rant.

[rms25]

lol simple vehicle? maybe a lada niva (not sold in the US I think?) nothing fancy but easy to fix

[potta_coffee]

I wish vehicles like that were available in the US. I'm afraid the market for them might be tiny. Americans often view their cars as an extension of themselves and their lifestyle rather than a utility.

[loeg]

My Subaru died at 20 years old and 200k miles, but that's still pretty good longevity for a car that isn't a Toyota.

[ams6110]

Older Toyotas rust horribly, especially the trucks, but are mechanically very solid. I've had rust issues with Nissans also. Honda seems to have it figured out.

I've been quite happy with Ford also.

Chrysler products are the worst I've ever owned from a reliability standpoint, most of my issues with them have been electrical not mechanical though.

[headmelted]

Have to say that the Corolla I referred to above is spotless wrt rust. Undercarriage too.

This is all the more impressive given that our roads are salted constantly in the winter months here.

The worst I've seen for it are mid-2000s Fords. It's like the frames aren't galvanized at all, but that may be a problem limited to UK models.

That said my (beloved) Nissan Leaf is starting to go orange underneath but thankfully it looks like surface rust rather than rot.

[ams6110]

I live in an area that goes crazy with salt at the slightest threat of snow or ice. So any shortcomings in corrosion protection are exposed here.

[potta_coffee]

Subaru is rusted badly. Toyotas didn't have any. Caravan problems are terrible and mostly electrical...window motors have all failed, door locks are failed, weird problems with the car not starting even though battery has charge (starter is fine but the computer refuses to allow the starter to try to work if voltage reading isn't correct). Weather stripping that covers the seams on the roof is all coming off. Anything that is not the engine is falling apart.

[DrScump]

  Older Toyotas rust horribly, especially the trucks

My 25 year old Toyota SR5 pickup has no rust at all.

[dsfyu404ed]

Reliability variation between models > reliability variation between brands.

Generally speaking cheap disposable appliance cars are cheap and disposable. OEMs put much more effort into their flagship products and the products that define their brand image.

Also just a friendly reminder that owner demographics have a large effect on reliability over the kind of 5+yr timeline many commenters here seem to be talking in. The wealthier the owner the better the vehicle is treated (at a statistical level, we all know one or two rich guys who never change their oil). Rich people years vs poor people years is like highway miles vs city miles.

[MikeCapone]

I don't know. High-volume cheap cars can certainly be more reliable than low volume, expensive high-end cars, simply because that's how manufacturing works.

Corollas and Civics can last forever.

[dragonwriter]

> So the old adage still holds true for mechanical reliability, Japanese > German/European > American/British

Or not.

Buick/Chevy/Lincoln > Audi/VW > Mitsubishi/Acura

[tgeorge]

I thought Fiat stood for Fix It Again Tony?

[kenhwang]

Broke my waterpump. Lots of trouble usually serious.