[niij]

> It is really a thing in America to believe in schemes that will make you rich/enable you to live off your investments

Personally, I don't think living frugally is a scheme. Spending less than you make and resisting the urge to buy things you don't need are the basic ideas behind financial independence. Investing your excess income allows for passive income to be generated.

Obviously this isn't viable for everyone, but if you're in a position of highish income and don't mind living frugally for some years, it's amazing what you're able to save. Some countries that tax their residents very high amounts (ex: many European countries) it might be harder to get ahead, but still not impossible to save I'd imagine.

> Why retire early? I value being able to work

There's nothing wrong with that! But for people who are interested in retiring early, they may have other goals in life besides their career. Retiring early allows for travel while you're still young and healthy, volunteer work, etc. Loving your job is a great thing and I think it's possible to work towards financial independence and enjoy your work.

> Just check how much the taxation in America has changed in the last 30-40 years and now try to believe that with your saved money you can live until you die

I'm not sure how taxes relate to the ability of my investments to generate returns. Could you elaborate a bit more on this?

[thiago_fm]

Saving is very important. I live in Europe, it is kind of mandatory, saving and working until you are 65. Even though I don't own a car or anything of value, mostly save in a city with good disposable income. I'm quite well versed in economics, read it actively. The way you describe it, clearly displays a weakness either on your thought, or the American financial system. If a random guy from a Internet forum can do it, possibly, a lot of Americans can do as well. Now, who is going to work to keep society running while your frugal lifestyle supports you? Not to mention I would feel a bit like taking advantage of others, if I would just wake up everyday and enjoy life meanwhile I have a gardner, one person to clean my swimming pool, buy everything on the supermarket(which was made by somebody), just getting services, but not using my fully capability in order to help society thrive.

About the American thing. The US has been printing a lot of money lately and there are many signs that this party will be over in a very bad way. People will riot, go to the streets, question why some developer at FB makes 400k+ year not to mention the executives doing some bullshit work, burn down things and in the end they will possibly need to make America more socialist. The same type of mockery and abuse the US does to socialist countries, will be done to its own capitalist people. You really don't understand the dimension of power the US has been using(and losing) over the years with the Dollar. Nowadays to be honest, almost everything I buy is from China, not the US. I wonder how the US can survive running huge deficits and creating conflict with other countries.

America nowadays just export dollars. It is a product that more and more people are with their hands full. Instead of questioning me about that, I think you would be better off asking your government how to make anything that you earn and save Today, will have ANY value at all in the future.

In summa, good luck with that.

[niij]

> I live in Europe, it is kind of mandatory, saving and working until you are 65

Who is mandating this?

> I would feel a bit like taking advantage of others, if I would just wake up everyday and enjoy life meanwhile I have a gardner [sic], one person to clean my swimming pool, buy everything on the supermarket(which was made by somebody), just getting services, but not using my fully capability in order to help society thrive

If you work 80 hours per week for 30 years, are you morally superior to someone who has only spent 40 hours per week working for 40 years? It's absurd and impossible to assign morality to time working.

Looks like you're asserting some sense of moral imperative that people work until they're 65. Moving the goalposts from a whether it's _possible_ to retire early to whether it's _moral_ to retire early seems to be nonsense to me. I don't believe there's any morality to be found one way or the other in working until age 65, it's a non sequitur.

> The US has been printing a lot of money lately [...] I think you would be better off asking your government how to make anything that you earn and save Today, will have ANY value at all in the future.

I completely agree; if we keep spending more than is taxed as well as printing money faster, then yes that will be the case. The debt is unsustainable in the US currently.

Where you and I differ is what we think the result of that increasing debt will be. I think the US will eventually cut social programs and possibly increase taxes to fix the debt problem. You seem to think that socialism will be the end result. I hope that isn't the case, as I have a hard time finding a situation where fighting debt with more debt works in the long run.

Thank you for taking the time to discuss with me!