[ggm]

I can relate to a plague on both their houses but it is important to worry a bit about 'law of unintended consequences' effects. Bezos is going to get something ordinary mortals cannot, (redress) because of his money. So he isn't a champion for fundamental rights against press abuse, he's a champion for millionaires rights.

A real win here is for a global press industry to adopt redress measures ordinary people can use, and for stories to reflect fundamental truths, not twisted outcomes.

Jeff is still a union-busting, extractive parasite in my personal opinion. He might have made a worldwide empire which drives the economy, but he also helped wreck small-town shopping alongside costco and walmart, and their international cohort of economically efficient traders. Its lovely to be able to buy anything. Its truly sad to walk past small town life consisting of boarded up shops.

[lxmorj]

I don't buy that "buying your shit at huge markup from a local shop" is some great boone to a community. It's effectively a tax on everyone in town, subsidizing the one family that owns the shop. There are plenty of businesses that are more local-friendly, but household necessities aren't one of them.

[ggm]

That tax keeps people in jobs. That tax kept social capital i the town heart.

The bigstore on the edge of town, and mail-order destroys social capital.

I absolutely get the prices were higher. I have lived this experience in different times, and short of cash I resented paying that markup in the corner store. But now, older and I think a little wiser I realize that what I did, was suck energy out of the local community. I miss the corner store, and I miss fresh bread from a local baker, and I miss the small indie bookshop and record store.

If the price of these things for a small town is a "tax" then can we be grown up and discuss the tax? I mean sure, you can drive the utility truck down the road to the costco, but what kind of a local are you, if the store-owner is on their hunkers because you stopped shopping? Are you a local at all?

[sudosteph]

Of course you're a local. It's ridiculous to judge a person's involvement with their community by how much money they can afford to waste at specialist shops. I grew up in a town that had little shops like that, but the only businesses that were at all accessible to me was the coffee shop and a diner, both of which were priced competitively with chains. My parents had to drive a town over because the only local grocery was an "organic" hippy place that charged double.

But I attended public school in that town, I attended church in that town, I volunteered at the community center, I basically spent every afternoon after class at the public library in that town. I learned to play harmonica on the sidewalk of that town. I knew the names of the old people and disabled people who hung out in the same places I did, places that wouldn't kick you out for not having extra money to spend. So yeah, I knew families that loved to brag about how they support small business by buying $40 books and statues of gnomes made by a well known artist. They usually sent their kids to private schools and had to drive in 15 min from mcmansions in a private neighborhood b/c as much as they enjoyed spending money in my town, they wouldn't dream of living in my part of town, next to the old mill houses and apartments. (That's all starting to change with some gentrification though.)

So yeah, people who don't have the luxury of being loose with money are absolutely locals - and it's ridiculous to suggest otherwise.

[ggm]

Of course you're a local. It's ridiculous to judge a person's involvement with their community by how much money they can afford to waste at specialist shops.

Wow. what a strawman. Its not specialist shops, its the garage, the baker, the newsagent, the food store. Its not wasting money, its deciding to economise personally, so widespread that everyone does, and suddenly half the town is shuttered.

I was not talking about hipster coffee moments, I was talking about what I see in small towns here in Australia: people stop using the local established main-street businesses, and the entire town heart dies, with people driving to least cost warehouse category killers with cheap petrol and free nescafe on the edge of town.

People who don't have the luxury to be loose with money include the former garage owner. He's on meth for a reason dude.

[the_reformation]

So you expect all customers to accept higher prices because of the community aesthetic you personally enjoy more?

[ggm]

Yes. I think I do. Which is at the heart of any tax discussion: So you expect all local citizens to accept higher taxes because of the community utility function you expect everyone to contribute to

What you're driving to, is that get off my goddam lawn and I drive over the border to buy cheaper and screw the lot of you get off my lawn is really fine.. except it isn't. Its pretty sad. But sure, its legal, go for it, don't worry, I can't stop you. I can feel about it, but you don't care what I feel so there's no downside. Right?

[lxmorj]

It's a super inefficient mechanism. You're better off having everyone save a bit by buying from Walmart, and be able to afford to go out to dinner once a month - instead of never.

[ggm]

The small towns I know, its your aunt who runs the store which shut, and its your cousin who used to run the garage who is now nickel-and-diming. Neither of them are working for tips in a restaurant.

[Invictus0]

You ask that question like it's the height of stupidity, seemingly failing to remember that it has been that way for the last hundred years. To put it a different way, wouldn't you rather pay a few cents more support your community and fellow neighbors than feed the checkbook of a $100B sweatshop owner a thousand miles away?

Of course, I already know the answer.

[savanaly]

I lean libertarian, but I like to think I have a lot of empathy and also to some degree share your preference for a quainter, high-price era of goods. So I'll try to argue Amazon's side from a point of view you might relate to.

Here's the thing: that era of town heart, like a beautiful sunset, is only charming if it's natural. Keeping an inefficient system alive at the point of the gun (for, and here's where my libertarian stripes are showing, that is what a tax necessarily entails in the end calculus) robs said system of whatever aesthetic pleasantness it used to hold. I would feel good being the proprietor of a clean, trustworthy and useful small shop in a town. I would feel much less good if I knew my existence was only due to charity or due to the novelty of having a small shop in town, essentially making me into a tourist attraction.

[selimthegrim]

My local corner store is run by Palestinians who have no compunction telling me in front of the mostly black clientele that they [aforementioned clientele] would “never survive in the old country because there’s no welfare there.” This was greeted during the recent government shutdown with grumbled threats of riots if SNAP wasn’t sorted out. Mayberry and Bodega Cat they all are not.

[ggm]

Oh please. Don't bring race to a knife fight on town economics.

[graeme]

>Bezos is going to get something ordinary mortals cannot, (redress) because of his money. So he isn't a champion for fundamental rights against press abuse, he's a champion for millionaires rights.

I never understand this kind of argument. Bezos says the enquirer used blackmail against many others who couldn't fight back because they had less power.

Bezos is fighting back, and will deprive the enquirer of their ability to blackmail. He also shows a public relations strategy that others can use, not simply a billionaire.

How does publicly punishing extortion fail to help others?

Likewise, legal precedents established by the rich can be used by the poor, more cheaply.

I feel this argument makes the perfect the enemy of the good.

[ggm]

I feel this argument makes the perfect the enemy of the good.

If as a result of what he does, the bar lowers for others to get redress. But, I did not see a surge in low-bar redress stem from Peter Theil's legal action. I saw him pony up significantly more lawyer points in a fight which the publisher couldn't win. He killed them. Every other publishers legal defence insurance went up, but none of them think this means they have to be sorry the next time they defame a small time player. If you can't even get in the door to complain, nothing Theil did helped.

OK nothing is maybe arguing to hard. There will be some redress for ordinary folk from this. Some.

To your side of the argument, the stuff in the UK taking on News Ltd over abuse of phone tapping went beyond simple famous people win: some famous people (Elle McPherson) settled privately, but others secured real redress for more ordinary people.

[graeme]

I would distinguish the thiel case. That wasn't what I was basing my argument on; you hadn't mentioned Thiel. The Thiel case was a two part process, with two lessons:

1. Don't make an enemy of a powerful person (Outing Peter Thiel as gay) 2. Don't publish a video of Hulk Hogan

The court case was about #2 but Gawker's real error was #1.

Whereas in the bezos case both the legal wrong and the enemy making involve the same person: Bezos

So any outcomes are more direct. Not everyone can afford private investigars like Bezos, but anyone will be able to see if legal precedent comes from it. And PR precedent.

That would change future negotiating leverages. Before, people feared the blackmail. After, they can more credibly know that the blackmailers risk legal jeopardy. The blackmailers will know this too and possibly refrain.

Finally, for PR, people's risk calculus may change. It Bezos comes out a hero, others too may be able to look heroic while publicly resisting blackmail, if their case parallels this one. (I.e. Bezos already is getting divorced, so the blackmailers only have public embarrassment as a tool)

[travisoneill1]

Jeff Bezos did not wreck small town shopping. People's collective desire for convenience did. And why is this a bad thing? Should people be forced to shop in a way they don't want to?

[manigandham]

>> Its lovely to be able to buy anything.

Yea, that's why people do it. This is what consumers want and they voted with their wallets. If it wasn't Bezos then it would've been someone else. I'm sure you know Walmart? It has half a trillion in revenues and has been wiping out small stores before Amazon even existed.

[threatofrain]

How do the economics of small towns work anyway, in relation to the larger national and international economy?

[bsder]

> He might have made a worldwide empire which drives the economy, but he also helped wreck small-town shopping alongside costco and walmart, and their international cohort of economically efficient traders.

I'm of two minds about this:

1) Yes, exactly what you described happened and wiped out a lot of decent, local jobs

2) Holy hell, the vast majority of local businesses were mindblowingly horrible. From customer service to selection, they were just Bad with a capital B.

My go to story (I have many) was a local auto dealership who accidentally broke the back window on my parents car. No big, shit happens. Until this conversation:

Dealership comes out to talk to me at 11:00AM: "We're done with the car repairs, but, sorry, we broke the rear passenger window."

Me (waiting in the coffee area): "Well, that's annoying. But, no big, I'll pick up the car tomorrow then."

Dealership: "Um. It won't be done tomorrow."

Me (eyebrows just shot up): "Would you care to explain why it won't be done tomorrow?"

Dealership: "Well, the window isn't in stock locally."

Me (skeptically): "Okaaaaaaaay. So, then get it from Pittsburgh."

Dealership: "Um, it's not in stock there, either."

Me (starting to get steamed): "So, then get it from New York or DC and finish it the day after."

Dealership: "Well, they don't have stock either."

Me (getting well and truly wound up): "Really? I find that excessively difficult to believe. My mechanic in California is probably awake right now. I'm about to call him to find this window and have it sent here via FedEx if required. If I call him to look this up, am I really going to find that there is no stock?"

Dealership: "Erm, well...they have it in Pittsburgh, but it's an extra $20 to have it shipped tomorrow since our normal shipment just came yesterday and we're not scheduled for another one until mid next week."

Me (hitting the roof): "So, let me get this straight: your mechanics broke my window and I'm going to be down a car for almost a week because you lying dipshits are worried about 20 fucking dollars. GET THE GODDAMN WINDOW, ASSHOLE! I will pay the twenty dollars myself, if necessary. However, I WILL find someone at GM and make his life miserable until he calls this dealership's owner and makes his life miserable. GET MOVING AND GET THAT WINDOW NOW!!!"

This was around 5 years ago. While I still occasionally have an absolute gem (my favorite candy store from my hometown, for example), my general experience is that local customer service is worse than the big companies--something that you wouldn't think possible.