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by inferiorhuman 2690 days ago
If you smell shit while walking down the street, maybe someone dropped a deuce on the sidewalk. If you smell shit everywhere you go, maybe it's you, maybe you shat your pants. When you violate the principle of least astonishment you're creating a huge stink.

That you can configure systemd to behave in a less obnoxious manner is well beside the point. Systemd should be unobtrusive and predictable without any extra action on the part of the distribution folks or end users.

That the suggestion is to simply read the code or documentation is the height of arrogance considering how sloppy and insecure the systemd code is (parse error equals root privileges? come on…).
1 comments
SahAssar 2690 days ago
Your argument assumes that systemd is simply meant to be a in-place compatible drop-in for what it replaces, which I don't think is something anyone would/should expect. If systemd was meant to behave the exact same way as systems it is replacing then there wouldn't be much point of it. For those cases it sometimes will break things, and will sometimes have settings to follow previous behavior.
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inferiorhuman 2690 days ago
There's plenty of room within the POSIX specs to address service management without requiring kernel integration, breaking userland tools, etc. When your init replacement manages to interfere with the kernel you've done something very, very wrong.
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SahAssar 2690 days ago
Not sure if I missed something here but how has it interfered with the kernel? AFAIK it has broken some userland tools (which is bad in itself in most cases), but actually breaking kernelspace is not something I've heard of.
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inferiorhuman 2690 days ago
https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/03/tso-and-linus-and...

Yet just two days ago, we see Linus Torvalds (the creator of Linux and maintainer of the Linux kernel), launching into a tirade against – yes, you guessed it – systemd developers because of their atrocious response to a bug in systemd that is crashing the kernel and preventing it from being debugged. Linus is so upset with systemd developer Kay Sievers (gee, where I have heard that name before – oh, that’s right, he’s the moron who refused to fix udev problems) that Linus is threatening to refuse any further contributions from this Red Hat developer, not just because of this bug, but because of a pattern of this behavior – a problem for Kay because Red Hat is also foaming at the mouth to have their kernel-based, no doubt bug- and security-flaw-ridden D-Bus implementation included in our kernels. Other developers were so peeved that they suggested simply triggering a kernel panic and halting the system when systemd is so much as detected in use.

The key phrase there is:

a bug in systemd that is crashing the kernel and preventing it from being debugged

Honestly though when you get Linus flaming your behavior you're doing something really wrong.

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Per_Bothner 2690 days ago
_Honestly though when you get Linus flaming your behavior you're doing something really wrong._

Haven't been around here long, have you? :-)

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yellowapple 2688 days ago
Likewise, of course, or you'd know that the tirades were more often than not in response to things that were indeed "really wrong" (at least by his standards).
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inferiorhuman 2690 days ago
Yeah I know Linus likes to go on a good tear. But I'm not talking about flaming your code or design decisions, but flaming your behavior.
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youdontknowtho 2689 days ago
from 2014. I'm only pointing it out to make it clear that the post wasn't recent. Not questioning anything else about it.
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