[SamReidHughes]

They're going to put this conversation in a chapter about motivated reasoning someday.

Seiko 5's had laser etched crystals as an anti-counterfeiting measure, and then, because counterfeiters copied that, they switched to open casebacks, an anti-counterfeiting measure that is used across the industry.

"Counterfeiting costs the watchmaking industry billions each year."

- Nick Hayek, CEO of the Swatch Group.

[ryanlol]

>They're going to put this conversation in a chapter about motivated reasoning someday.

It's hilarious that you're so invested in this that you resort to attacking my character.

>they switched to open casebacks, an anti-counterfeiting measure that is used across the industry

I would assume that open casebacks are used because they look cool, not to prevent counterfeiting.

>"Counterfeiting costs the watchmaking industry billions each year."

>- Nick Hayek, CEO of the Swatch Group.

I think this is bullshit, I doubt you can find any data that would support this claim. I can't. I'd bet he just took some estimate of replica industry total revenue and decided that's how much it costs the legit watchmaking industry.

[sho]

> "Counterfeiting costs the watchmaking industry billions each year."

I take this with the same giant heaping of salt that I'd take with claims that the record industry loses billions per year because of mp3s, or movie companies because of bittorrent. They were never going to see those sales. The market size at price $0 is much, much larger than that at anything higher. Wishful thinking at its purest.

I second, with emphasis, ryanlol's rejection of your ideas about counterfeits being somehow immoral. I don't buy counterfeits but would have zero moral qualms about doing so - it doesn't even enter my mind. To be honest I have difficulty believing anyone seriously believes buying a counterfeit watch is truly immoral. If you actually do believe that - wow, we live in different worlds.

I find it hard to take seriously anyone who outsources their morality to whatever the law happens to currently be wherever they currently are. Laws vary wildly across both time and space. Anyone claiming their morals just follow "the law" is actually admitting they don't have their own morals at all.

[SamReidHughes]

I'm not outsourcing morality to the law at all. It's not breaking the law that makes it immoral, it's supporting organized crime that is immoral. That is just one reason why wearing fake watches is immoral.

Even if it was legal to violate trademarks and commit fraud, you'd be paying people who are sneaky, lying sons of bitches.

[sho]

Oh come on. The mob doesn't bother with fake Swatches. What ridiculous hyperbole. Next you'll be suggesting buying a fake watch is supporting terrorism!

I would suggest that anyone buying a $50 "rolex" is not, in fact, being defrauded, and if they are - well, they kind of deserve it.

[SamReidHughes]

Organized crime isn't "the mob." It's any criminal enterprise. People are making $10000 fake Rolexes, not just $50 ones.

[sho]

> Organized crime isn't "the mob." It's any criminal enterprise

Then you need to stop using the term "organized crime" because it has a pretty specific meaning. If it's "any criminal enterprise" then we just call that "crime" - and once again, you are referring to the law to define morality.

> People are making $10000 fake Rolexes

What. Not they are not. Your outlandish claims need evidence. Show many any example of someone who paid $10k for a fake Rolex.

[dragonwriter]

> Then you need to stop using the term "organized crime" because it has a pretty specific meaning.

That meaning is a criminal enterprise. The mob is organized crime. Drug cartels are organized crime. Any organization against which RICO might be used is organized crime.

> If it's "any criminal enterprise" then we just call that "crime".

No, just “crime” doesn't require an enterprise. A criminal enterprise is organized crime.

[ryanlol]

>What. Not they are not. Your outlandish claims need evidence. Show many any example of someone who paid $10k for a fake Rolex.

$10k seems about right for a fancy solid gold frankenwatch. These pop up for sale on forums sometimes, but they tend to be built by watchsmiths as a hobby and have almost nothing to do with the replica industry being discussed here.

[SamReidHughes]

I've personally helped save people from buying $6000 fake Rolexes.

The fact that people send their fakes to Rolex to get serviced (which then get confiscated) is proof that they don't know they bought a fake.

[ryanlol]

What is organized crime? A group of people breaking the law in an organized manner?

Seems like the immorality of supporting organized crime would depend entirely on the nature of the crime being committed.

>commit fraud

Who is being defrauded?

>lying sons of bitches

Who is being lied to?