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by qzy 2707 days ago
Given than in Europe we have no debt but we don't do any of those things either, I'd say you're looking at something else.
5 comments

Somewhat ironically my lack of debt made it possible for us to move to Europe from the US, though I do have to make sure I earn a decent living (very good by European standards, so-so by US standards) to pay off the wife's aforementioned debt (we agreed to this ahead of time).

And I can only speak from my own experience, but people here do seem to do more of the things I noted. With a month off a year and, frankly, knowing you won't die in a gutter if you lose your job, you can spend more time on music, writing, whatever. But that's pure anecdata.

We do to a larger extent, but we also increasingly have similar social problems as the US. Economic freedom doesn't directly lead to good things. It is essentially economic freedom -> good social conditions -> good things. You can move to a more rural are in Europe and won't have to worry as much about money (especially if you are working remotely), but the social conditions will likely be worse, maybe even a lot. And you'll still pay the same taxes.
Young people still have to pay a huge percentage out of their monthly wage on rent or mortgage. I remember reading that in Norway you can contract a 90+-year mortgage, that's basically putting you and your kids and grand-kids into servitude.
You are probably thinking of Sweden. I have heard it is actually more now, like 200 years (the article says 140 years). Maybe even excluding the mortgage of the co-op. People are essentially renting from the banks, without any means to default. Apparently they have capped it at 105 years now for new mortgages. (People were actually a bit upset).

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/personal-banking/mortgages/swede...

WTF? Normal mortage is 20-25 years down payment, I've never heard anyone having even a 35 year down payment, let alone 90 years.
In the UK there's such a thing as an "interest-only mortgage" where you don't pay down the principal at all! Which of course means lower monthly payments.

The theory is, if your mortgage interest rate was X% but some other investment like the stock market had much higher returns, a sophisticated investor might want to take the money they would have spent on repaying the principal and instead put it into that better-performing investment, then after 20 years pay off the mortgage principal with said investment.

Post-financial-crisis rules were put in place that mean banks actually have to ensure you're _making_ that higher-performing investment.

I too remember reading this, but about Stockholm not Norway.
I have never heard of this. I cannot really believe any norwegian bank would grant you anything even close that that.
From my observations in the past two years living in Europe as a Canadian, it almost feels like a hopelessness due to the lack of social mobility here that causes those things.
Huh, Europe is pretty big - where are you? I moved from the US to Europe (Ireland) and I'd say social mobility _seems_ higher here. There's still a definite class structure, and access to good schools remains an issue, but if nothing else the low-paid are paid more here and the high-paid are paid less. And we're one of the most unequal countries in the EU!
>the low-paid are paid more here and the high-paid are paid less

That softens the issue, but doesn't make class mobility easier.

> lack of social mobility

What does this mean? Asking as a European that might be missing something (compared to Canada for example) but doesn't realize it.

As a European, student debt after a masters degree will be $50K or more. Yes, without tuition.
I think what you mean to say is that, "In some European countries, student debt after a masters degree...."

From what I understand, you can get out without debt here (norway). No tuition, low fees for books and things. Government stipend doens't need repaid, but you can take out a loan above that (common). Then move up north and work for some time. 10 years, I think? And I'm awfully sure that some countries won't have as much debt in that time simply because living expenses are lower and some folks are able to live with family while going to school for the 5-6 years it takes to get a masters.

It hardly matters on the distinction, though. It isn't like tuition in the US covers living expenses. Even if you are able to live in student housing, you don't get housing all year in many places - you might need to move yourself and your stuff out for anywhere between 2 weeks and 2 months. Whatever your loans for living costs are, at least they aren't higher due to tuition.

I'm sure it varies a lot between countries. When I did my masters in Ireland in 2011, the total fee was €5,000. Back then, there was a local government grant that covered the fee plus some living costs. Those grants are harder to get today though.
Probably depends on the country. In Germany, the student debt is zero in most cases, except if you received student support (Bafög). Even with Bafög, it's not a lot of debt.
I paid €600 a year for my bachelors in Belgium. Where did you get a student debt of $50k?