[lukego]

> I just want a "hello world" example to get an idea what I am actually dealing with. How do I run a "hello world" program from the command line?

The trouble is that what you are dealing with is a graphical interactive programming environment. Sure, you can run it from the command line like /bin/perl, but to understand what you are dealing with you have to open it up and try it on its own terms.

If you aren't interested in a novel immersive programming environment then you can safely ignore Pharo too.

[theon144]

>If you aren't interested in a novel immersive programming environment then you can safely ignore Pharo too.

I was curious and so downloaded and ran the default image, and I'm beyond captivated by it, but I have to agree that neither the link nor the homepage do a good job of enticing me to do so, or even hinting and what can I expect.

If I didn't feel like setting up and checking out random projects I stumble upon, I would have never even seen what Pharo is about, given the abundance of marginally different programming languages that pop up on HN.

So yeah, I also think Pharo's best "Hello, World" is just opening it and trying out stuff, but maybe it should try to sell itself, at least a little, for the uninitiated?

[lukego]

> maybe it should try to sell itself, at least a little, for the uninitiated?

Guessing this is a hard problem. People have been working on marketing Smalltalk for almost 50 years now. If there were an easy solution I reckon they'd have found it by now :)

[mkl]

This seems a step worse, though. Neither the release page nor the main Pharo page even mention smalltalk, yet the documentation page talks about it as if it's the same thing (and only seems to point to books and videos, not basic introductions and tutorials). It's really strange for a programming language site to go to so much effort to hide its language.

[lucas_membrane]

Yes, I see that the announcement says that the FFI is improved, so I look at the documentation page to see how it is improved, and I see quite a few links, but these are mostly old links to contributed docs, none obviously covering the new release. I guess that the books page linked to documentation page is the one most likely to include anything about the FFI, but the newest book I spot there is 8 months old. Google search for pharo 7.0 FFI turns up the same release announcement and nothing else relevant.

[scroot]

Fellow Pharo contributors: we should take this feedback seriously

[4thaccount]

Agreed. The main website could benefit from somehow conveying the mind blowing power of using Pharo.

Maybe lots of little gifs?

[smoe]

One thing that struck me a bit odd was, that the website makes it look like I have to buy a book or join a (paid?) mooc to get started, because these are the very first sections under "documentation".

I was just looking for a basic examples to get some sense what Pharo is about and what the look and feel are. Without downloading and installing it, I wasn't aware that there is a pretty nice interactive tutorial built in.

Maybe convey better how Pharo is distinct from other languages/environments and how to get going?

Pharo is indeed very easy to get started, but the website makes it appear harder than it actually is.

[theon144]

Oh yeah, absolutely; seeing the MOOC featured so prominently, which I genuinely was in no mood for, I was just about resigned to having to aimlessly click around and run barely functional snippets - and then I open the image, and there's a super friendly beginner ready interactive tutorial!

Pharo might be the first project I've seen whose actual usability an user-friendliness is behind that of their presentation :)

[4thaccount]

I don't remember the MOOC costing money, but it was in French with English subtitles which is understandable with them being French researchers at INRIA, but it couldn't keep my attention up due to the gap.

The books are all free in PDF form and the lead developer also has another website somewhere where he hosts old Smalltalk textbooks which are largely still relevant.

They certainly could work on conveying this better, but it is open source and likely not a high priority.

[smoe]

Sorry, if I came off as too negative!

For me it was just the initial perception I got. E.g. I only realized that the books were free after you told me. And yes, this is due to me evidently being too lazy doing an additional click. I don't mind paying for books, but not as a first step.

I did download and tried Pharo because I was intrigued by it from another person, if I just were to land on the website from some random link, I likely wouldn't have.

I think there could be some small changes in wording and presentation that would get a long way for people without any prior knowledge of the language. For example if you compare it to Rust (just content, not design wise)

https://www.rust-lang.org/learn

[4thaccount]

I see what you mean. I think Smalltalk and lisp have always suffered from poor marketing. There have been efforts to change this, but possibly too little too late.

[smacktoward]

Social proofs could work too. If you can't show me how powerful Pharo is visually, show me a bunch of people (preferably people whose names, or company/employers' names, I would recognize, but that's secondary) telling me how powerful Pharo is.

[igouy]

Perhaps they are interested in using a novel immersive programming environment to develop an app that runs from OS command line without GUI.