[jnbiche]

Seeing as how the author was indeed born in Israel, I figured at first that it was unreasonable to complain, since like or or not he was probably an Israeli citizen.

However, looking into Israeli citizenship law, I learned that Israel does not have birthright citizenship. So he was not automatically a citizen despite being born there. Had his parents been Israelis (and that doesn't appear to be the case), he would be Israeli.

It's true that he's likely eligible to claim Israeli citizenship through the law of return. But being eligible for Israeli citizenship isn't the same as having it.

So I do understand the annoyance. It's not just a technicality--he actually doesn't have Israeli citizenship. Google's algorithm appears to assume all countries practice birthright citizenship like the US (when many, probably most, do not).

[JorgeGT]

> probably most, do not

Indeed, as a rule of thumb ius soli is found mainly in American countries: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli

[p1necone]

Is there a set of circumstances that could result in someone being born in Israel without gaining citizenship, while also not getting citizenship in the country their parents were from?

[jnbiche]

I think that in the vast, vast majority of countries (all of them?), you receive the citizenship of your parents, regardless of the country in which you're born.

So unless therhttps://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=jnbichee's a country where this is not the case, the situation you're describing would not occur. And if there is such a country, the problem would not be unique to Israel, since birthright citizenship is not practiced in many (most?) countries.

Edit: Interesting. As user cwzwarich points out, it appears that India is indeed such a country. So looks like it's possible to be stateless at birth if you're Indian and born in one of the many countries without birthright citizenship. That said, all an Indian citizen has to do if that happens is to report the birth at an Indian embassy within 1 year of the birth, and then the child is an Indian citizen. But if your parents are irresponsible or unaware of the law...

[rahimnathwani]

"I think that in the vast, vast majority of countries (all of them?), you receive the citizenship of your parents, regardless of the country in which you're born."

For the UK at least, it's not that simple, unless your parents were born in the UK. If your parents citizenship is due solely to one/both of your grandparents being UK citizens (i.e. your parents were also born overseas), you might not be entitled to UK citizenship.

I don't recall the details, but IIRC you need to live in the UK for some time in order to pass on citizenship to your child.

The US has similar rules.

[jnbiche]

> The US has similar rules.

US doesn't have citizenship by descent (the grandparents situation you're describing). So it has no similar rules.

[rahimnathwani]

The situation I'm describing is different from what you call 'citizen by descent'.

I'm describing a situation in which:

- grandparent was a UK citizen born in UK

- parent was born outside UK, but had UK citizenship at birth

- child was both outside UK, and is not automatically a UK citizen, because parent didn't ever live in the UK

The US has similar rules. They determine what happens to a child if at least one parent is a US citizen, but that parent was born outside the US. If the parent lived in the US for many years (I don't recall the exact #), then the child gets US citizenship. If the parent never lived in the US, then there are other conditions that may or may not result in the child getting citizenship.

[joshuamorton]

Yes it does. It can get complex, but in the simplest case, if your parents are married and both citizens, you will be to, no matter where you were born.

[jnbiche]

I'm well aware of this, since I have close family that your situation applies to. Actually, if your parents are married and even one is a US citizen, you will be too, always.

This may just be a terminology disagreement, but that's typically not what is considered "citizenship by descent".

What we're describing is considered by the US to be "citizenship by parents" or "acquired citizenship". On the other hand, "citizenship by descent" is the European tradition of awarding citizenship to grandchildren and even great-grandchildren of citizens. The US doesn't have citizenship by descent (in fact, it's true that there's a single situation when your grandparent's citizenship can matter to someone trying to assert US citizenship, but it's only as a kind of "tiebreaker" if your parents weren't married and one was a US citizen).

[markdown]

There was an interesting case recently where the Daesh terrorist Neil Prakash had his Australian citizenship revoked illegally (according to both Australian and International law).

His father had emigrated to Australia from Fiji, met a Cambodian woman and had a child. Father and son eventually became Australian citizens.

In any case, Australia enacted a law recently that allowed them to revoke citizenship of terrorists if they held dual citizenship.

The Australian govt revoked Prakash's citizenship, asserting that he also held Fijian citizenship.

The Fiji govt disputed this, asserting that Prakash was not a Fijian citizen, had never been one, and hadn't so much as stepped foot in Fiji. They said that he had qualified for Fijian citizenship by virtue of being born overseas to a Fiji citizen, but that since his father had never applied for citizenship for his son, it was never granted to him. Fijian citizenship is only granted automatically to children of a Fijian parent born on Fijian soil.

By stripping this Aussie of his citizenship and making him stateless, Australia acted illegally according to both their own laws as well as international law.

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2019/jan/02/neil-...

[cwzwarich]

This sort of thing is technically possible for children of Indian citizens born in countries without birth citizenship, see e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_nationality_law#Citizen.... Given that millions of Indians live in Persian gulf countries with these sorts of citizenship laws, I wonder if it has ever happened.

[taejo]

Statelessness absolutely does happen. On 13 November 2018, Filippo Grandi, United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees said there are about 12 million stateless people in the world.

[mey]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statelessness

[p1necone]

I did find this, but prompting discussion to read on hacker news instead is so much more interesting :)

[pgrote]

>Seeing as how the author was indeed born in Israel

And Google notes this in the knowledge box. Above where it says he is born it states: Israeli computer scientist

I would say in most cases you could make the leap that someone born somewhere is an X computer scientist. In this case, it isn't correct.

The more concerning thing about this is Google's lack of attention to the feedback reports they solicit for knowledge box. I've put a couple through in the past and they haven't change the information. Who knows.

Maybe the feedback process exists to gauge what actually needs to change? <100 requests and it is ignored.

EDIT

After I posted this I made a feedback request and immediately received this back from Google:

"Thank you for submitting feedback for Ehud Reiter.

We're currently processing other feedback related to this topic so the changes you requested might already be underway.

Here’s your submission:

====================

He is not Israeli.

====================

If accepted, this suggested edit will be added to the Knowledge Graph, where it will help Google return richer information and more meaningful results to users’ queries. Your submission is governed by Google's Terms of Service and will be used in accordance with our Privacy Policy. If you are the authorized representative for this entity, please review these guidelines on the process to get verified."

[jnbiche]

> I would say in most cases you could make the leap that someone born somewhere is an X computer scientist.

In most countries of the world, this is not the case. As a general rule, only the countries North/South America practice ius soli, or birthright citizenship.

[daveFNbuck]

I think the point is that most humans are currently citizens of the country that they were born in, if that country still exists. It may not be automatic by law, but this difference doesn't apply to a large proportion of the population.