[desertedisland]

Here are some specific complaints about the EU:

- Nobody in the UK ever voted for an external, supra-national government to have increasing control over numerous and increasing aspects of British life: farming, fishing, immigration, subsidies, etc. etc.

- The EU is openly talking about a unified army, implementation of a law requiring all members to join the Euro and 'tax harmonisation': the removal of sovereign countries to set their own tax policies.

- Oh I know you'll tell me elected chambers that elect councils that distribute swords allocating a table of 7 presidents who nominate a head hobbit but the EU is patently undemocratic: noone knows who's in it, what they do or how they got there. Turnout for EU elections runs around 25% in the UK: it's hardly a mandate from the people is it?

- The EU is very expensive to the UK which makes a net contribution of £9 billion / year. This is money that could be spent on hospitals, teachers, police, etc.

- I know you like the EU because you see it as some hippy, huggy federation of nations but the EU is increasingly right-wing and neo-liberal - you need only look at their criminal treatment of Greece to see that.

[benj111]

- farming and fishing policies were central parts of the EU (EEC) when we joined, and voted to stay.

-'The EU' might be talking about them, they probably talk about a lot of things that aren't going to happen. And some are probably more reasonable than you are making out.

- I don't agree it's undemocratic, but yes there is poor engagement. I think that's a reason why we voted to leave, rather than a reason to leave in and of itself.

- That's less than 1% of govt spending. That is cheap. Brexit will cut growth, this money may plug the gap, we aren't going to be economically better off after leaving though.

- The EU reflects its citizens, you only have to look at Britain itself to see the same thing happening.

[orbifold]

It is undemocratic by design (the role of the parliament is roughly that of the role of the parliament in Bismarck's Germany, they can't introduce laws and can only veto or amend laws they don't like. They don't appoint the commission etc.) and tries to replace the national laws and constitutions democratic nations have given to them. Luckily they didn't manage to institute a EU constitution, but some of their other reforms like Bologna have done enough damage as is. Their science funding is extremely ineffective and wasteful compared to the funding schemes of the national organizations like the Max Planck and Helmholtz society, but unfortunately practically mandatory now.

I get that it is a "right wing, populist" thing to oppose the EU, but there are plenty of reasons not to like it.

[benj111]

The commission is selected by the European council that is made up of people selected by national governments.

It's like saying that the UK isn't democratic because the house of lords isn't elected, and neither is our head of state (which is even worse, because democratically elected representatives get absolutely no say in that).

[orbifold]

In most democracies in Europe the head of government is chosen by parliament, not by some third party. The current setup is precisely how things were in the Kaiserreich. I did not get to elect most people in the European council, right now the guy representing Germany is someone that does not even speak proper English and was send off to Brussels because he failed as [Minister President](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%BCnther_Oettinger).

[jcranmer]

> Nobody in the UK ever voted for an external, supra-national government to have increasing control over numerous and increasing aspects of British life: farming, fishing, immigration, subsidies, etc. etc.

Most of that stuff was in the EEC that the British did vote for. The EU did guarantee that Britain could further opt out of "ever closer union" if it wanted to.

> The EU is openly talking about a unified army, implementation of a law requiring all members to join the Euro and 'tax harmonisation': the removal of sovereign countries to set their own tax policies.

Britain also had a guaranteed opt-out of the Euro. Since Britain and France are the only EU countries with any military capabilities worth speaking out, Britain has an effective veto over any unified military policy.

> The EU is very expensive to the UK which makes a net contribution of £9 billion / year. This is money that could be spent on hospitals, teachers, police, etc.

You do know that the Leave campaign basically said the day after the referendum "oops, this part of our plank was a big, fat, steaming lie"?

> Oh I know you'll tell me elected chambers that elect councils that distribute swords allocating a table of 7 presidents who nominate a head hobbit but the EU is patently undemocratic: noone knows who's in it, what they do or how they got there. Turnout for EU elections runs around 25% in the UK: it's hardly a mandate from the people is it?

I'll grant you that the EU has a hard time trying to overcome apathy in its democratic institutions. But apathy doesn't make it less democratic.

> I know you like the EU because you see it as some hippy, huggy federation of nations

Ha ha ha. No, that's not how I see the EU at all.

[hkt]

We went into the EEC after a referendum.

Also, we're mostly a representative democracy. That means we vote for representatives whose job it is to.. represent us. Make decisions on our behalf. etc.

[pjc50]

> the EU is increasingly right-wing and neo-liberal

Yes, but Tory Britain is even more so.