[bloomingfractal]

IMHO, there's no point in individual action, we need collective political action in the form of massive government intervention, pretty much like in a total war economy. The free market clearly has failed here:

- Carbon tax.

- Carbon tariffs.

- Expropriation of all oil fields, the oil has to stay in the ground.

- Criminal prosecution of executives and shareholders of Oil companies much like what should have happened to the Tobacco industry.

- Job program (right to employment) to re-train the workforce in green technologies, specially in areas that will be affected by the aforementioned measures.

[jlarocco]

Sorry, but that will never work and isn't feasible to implement.

The real problem is that billions of people want to drive and buy products that require burning oil to produce. Oil companies are just giving people what they want.

Shutting down oil companies before dealing with the massive demand is a recipe for failure.

[notJim]

Or maybe shutting down oil companies will create the demand for an alternative.

[kamaal]

A variation of that is what controlling carbon emissions is about. But no country wants to commit to it, because no other competing country wants to commit to it.

Basically any body who will do it, gives away the economic edge to a competing country. On a longer run these things will add up and then you end up handing over the thrown of geo political control to that country. Basically the existing super power(s) can't and won't do it because, doing so will create new super powers, and loss of their own standing in the world. And the aspiring super powers won't do it because, obviously it's hypocritical to ask others to cut down on emissions, when you won't do it personally yourself.

There is no reason for any developing economy to believe why the existing super powers should have the sole right to run an industrialized developed economy with first world benefits, while developing economies should be even prevented from giving their people a good life.

[genidoi]

Brilliant - combine this with Russia economically benefiting from climate change - emerging artic shipping routes / oil drilling opportunities from ice melting[0] - and people wonder why climate change cynicism is on the rise.

[0] https://themoscowtimes.com/articles/russia-to-reap-benefits-...

[shpongled]

So you're going to just remove all capacity for electricity generation, plastics, chemical feedstocks, etc etc overnight?

[hodder]

Criminal prosecution of shareholders of oil companies? You do realize this basically includes every human with pension, mutual fund or ETF holdings right? The notion is unfounded. Shareholders are not breaking any laws.

It is up to the government to set the rules and allow the market to play within them. Expropriation of oilfields would imply the government pick winners and losers and would be a devastating blow to property rights. If you advocate change, you should focus on advocating (fair) change in the regulatory framework.

Why not simply let the market decide which carbon emissions are of the most marginal value to society. You do this through cap and trade or carbon taxes, not from picking winners and losers.

[bloomingfractal]

I do believe that if there are internal company reports that their activities are causing global warming and the board decides to go with business as usual, it's a criminal activity [1].

It's indeed a blow against property rights, that's why I'm saying it's a measure of a total war economy, which is something reserved for the most dire circumstances. The reason for expropriation is that it's not enough to have a single or a couple measures against global warming, we need all of them. We need as much carbon to stay in the ground as possible [2].

[1] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2017/feb/28/shell-kn... [2] https://www.bbc.com/news/science-environment-30709211

[simplecomplex]

There is no law against "causing global warming", and it's not caused by one oil company.

Carbon tax doesn't address energy sustainability, or force people to stop polluting. They just have to pay to pollute, or switch to non-Co2 pollution. Co2 isn't the only form of pollution. Pumping it into the ground like we do with nuclear waste isn't a sustainable solution either.

Seizing oil fields and carbon tariffs would wreck havoc on innocent people, since getting food and being able to survive is entirely dependent on the global economy in all developed nations.

We could power all of the US with solar with 0.5% of the land we have. Solar is already feasible with the will, and improving.

[bzbarsky]

There's a difference between "the board" (which is supposed to provide oversight) and "shareholders" (who may not even know they're shareholders).

[briandear]

If causing global warming is a crime, then wouldn’t causing global cooling also have to be a crime? There is a logical quagmire in this thought process.

[trgn]

> IMHO, there's no point in individual action

Very much disagree. You can both take individual action and push for systemic change, for two reasons.

Individual action can make a meaningful difference, maybe not in curbing climate change, but at least in supporting biodiversity in your little corner of the world, if ever so small. In the case of the monarchs, you can help by preserving their habitat by planting milkweed. There's a lot of examples of other small scale conservation efforts that make a real difference.

If you have some time to spare, Jonathan Franzen wrote an article about your defeatist attitude https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/04/06/carbon-capture, contrasting it to the meaningful work that can be done, and should be done by people of all means. It's well written, if not his message, you may enjoy his prose.

Second, taking individual action, however small, is the right thing to do. Eventually, somebody needs to be the first to step up. Some people already do, by making choices that reduce their carbon footprint, lowering their daily driving needs, travelling less by airplane, living smaller, whatever it may be.. Be that first person. When you lead by example, advocating for systemic change might actually work, as more and more people may follow in your footsteps.

[mac01021]

First:

This bill https://energyinnovationact.org/ (also [1]) is in the US Congress right now. It includes a carbon fee-and-dividend (both a tax and tariffs, the proceeds of which are distributed among all residents of the nation).

Please call your representative and tell them supporting this policy is the most important thing they'll ever do. Also get everyone you know to do the same.

Second:

Criminal prosecution of executives and shareholders of Oil companies,

- Will never be politically tractable

- Is equivalent to prosecution of someone for loading a gun, rather than the person who pulled the trigger

- Does divesting from a company even hurt that company? I mean if the company is not trying to raise cash by selling shares? If they aren't trying to sell stock, why do they care about the share price?

[1] https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/7173

[crazynick4]

That may seem like a feasible way forward but you can look at what happened when France took a step in this direction. Theyve since stepped all the way back and the protests are still ongoing.

And rightly so. The reason it's unfair is because the general population shouldn't be the ones to pay for the disaster that is our environment. They bought the cars because they needed them to survive in this economy. The people who should be punished are the big players that pushed the economy in this direction in the first place. They should be the ones to carry this load for everyone, and nobody else.

[vidoc]

> That may seem like a feasible way forward but you can look at what happened when France took a step in this direction. They've since stepped all the way back and the protests are still ongoing.

Except that in the case of France, the proposed tax really was an austerity measure masqueraded under the idealogical tazer of Save_The_Environment (a classic, these days): in fact, only 15% of the tax was actually going to the budget of the ministry of ecology.

That said, I largely agree with you with regards to who should bear the costs of these things, but in this case, the social consequences are such an unexpected gift that I would urge Washington politicians to attempt such a move :)

[sopooneo]

I have a feeling that people who perform individual actions are more likely to vote for collective ones. And the campaigns to promote individual actions can be a much easier sell.

I once read that the way to get people to donate to the red cross is first ask them if they would like to wear a free red cross ribbon. Then a week later ask them if they would like to donate. I suspect environmentalism could work the same way.

[zackmorris]

I second this. I'm 41 and have seen how privatization has mainly only led to decline in the areas I care about like the environment and workers' rights. Sure we have a good economy currently, but I feel that's in spite of rampant capitalism, not because of it.

As a kid here in Idaho, I remember seeing lots of Monarch butterflies and the others that imitate them. Today I see only moths and smaller white butterflies (we still have some large wood moths in the forests thankfully).

I think the problem is that young people today think that this is how things are supposed to be. They aren't old enough to remember pre-Reagan, or the fellowships, mens/womens groups and even religious volunteer groups of my grandparents' generation - which remembered the dangers of the Great Depression when there was no social safety net, and fascism in WWII.

Just for a poll, does anyone here believe that the free market can provide solutions to the externalities listed in this thread? Please include your age and why.

[travisoneill1]

It's not the corporations fault, it's our fault. Going after oil companies is the liberal version of supply side economics.

[viburnum]

I'd add building a ton of zero-carbon housing and neighborhoods and more or less giving it away.

[njarboe]

"oil has to stay in the ground"

Or at least stop burning it. A decent CO2 tax would do that.

[rossdavidh]

Probably true, but individual action is a way of stating, "I will do this much without the government, so obviously I support collective action". Also if, say, the government is engaged in genocide, a change in government policy is certainly called for, but you should still shelter/hide individuals that come your way, as best you can.

Not usually comfortable with bringing genocide into a discussion about political theory, since it rarely adds understanding to the discussion, but in this case it seems literally to be the most apt analogy.

[bloomingfractal]

Agreed. To rephrase, I just think that people spend too much time arguing what they can do on an individual/moral level (i.e. veganism, etc) and too little time discussing political solutions, and I believe this is mostly a political issue.

I do feel guilty about my carbon footprint and have been trying to decrease it. For instance, I would love to not drive to work but there's simply not good public transportation where I live, what can I personally do about that?

If, for instance, a corporation dumps toxic waste on a river because it's cheaper than the fines, what can I do about that besides political action?

[kaybe]

Can you work from home once in a while? If you do it one day every 2 weeks you saved 1/10 of commute energy just like that.