[abalone]

Literally every other industrialized country has a Medicare For All type system and somehow the hospitals manage to stay open.

And you can’t mention a tax increase without mentioning the savings of not having to pay for private insurance.

[zeroname]

I am talking about actual Medicare, which causes big losses for hospitals. Those need to be covered, that is my point.

You can not just import other nations healthcare systems. Those are cheaper because the doctors and nurses earn less and the service is worse.

[abalone]

You don’t cite any evidence to support your claim. Most U.S. doctors graduate with >$100K in medical education debt. Other countries have better health outcomes, so that pretty much kills your “worse service” claim.

Rob Delaney is a great example of an American who experienced both US and U.K. systems in depth. Look him up.

[zeroname]

> You don’t cite any evidence to support your claim. Most U.S. doctors graduate with >$100K in medical education debt.

You posted a source yourself:

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/2018/03/u-s-pays-more...

Salaries are almost twice as high. Those other countries also tend to have higher taxes and other salary deductions, so doctors earn less.

> Other countries have better health outcomes, so that pretty much kills your “worse service” claim.

No it doesn't. Not every US citizen actually receives the service, because they want to (or have to) save money, kicking the problem down the road, exacerbating the issue. Americans also tend to be more obese.

You call the "cancer survival" rate a cherry pick, but it's actually a good indicator how good the actual treatment is and how timely it is administered.

> Rob Delaney is a great example...

One guy's opinion isn't "evidence" either. I could give you individual health care horror stories from single payer countries, but that would be emotional manipulation.

[DanBC]

Everyone knows that 5 year cancer survival rates in the US are high because the US over-tests so much.

This is evidence that harm is being caused. It's not evidence of a good health care system.

Why are male incontinence products so prevalent in the states? It's because men are pushed to get PSA and similar screening for prostate cancer. This means the US detects a lot of slow growing cancer that's unlikely to kill someone (which improves the 5 year survival stats), but it also means that the US then provides treatment to those men. That treatment has side effects.

[Sir_Vival]

It doesn't seem like "over testing" or "harm" if the end result is less people dying. The fact of the matter is that I was able to get an MRI the same day I went to the doctor with an issue twice in the US. One of those times was for severe recurrent headaches. The doctor didn't think it was a tumor (and it wasn't), but he did it to be sure. If I were in Canada chances are I would have waited months for that appointment. In the worst case that would mean the tumor had time to grow. In the best case that's months of unnecessary worry, which isn't healthy in itself.

[icebraining]

If you were in Canada you could get that MRI privately and still probably save quite a bit of money.

[DanBC]

> if the end result is less people dying

That isn't the end result.

[abalone]

> > Other countries have better health outcomes, so that pretty much kills your “worse service” claim.

> No it doesn't. Not every US citizen actually receives the service, because they want to (or have to) save money

So by “better” service you mean no service for the poor. That’s better? This is how you spin a system with worse health outcomes into something “better” — again, without citing a shred of evidence.

[DanBC]

> the service is worse.

You keep saying this but you've never provided any evidence, and it's clear the US care is worse across a range of indicators.

Some people say the US system works best for the rich and healthy, but even they suffer because of the weird amount of over-testing and over-diagnosis that happens.

[rscho]

Switzerland...

[zeroname]

...is a total outlier country in every respect. It also has a vastly higher cost of living. Nominal salaries are not comparable with the US. Still, they're better than in other European countries, so their doctors (and many other professionals) flock to Switzerland (after having taken all their "free" training in their home countries).

By the way, health insurance in Switzerland is entirely private, but its affluent citizens are forced to buy insurance by law.