[Someone1234]

That isn't really accurate, you're just defining "crapware" is such a way so that Google's apps don't qualify. That's a double standard.

Google Drive, Gmail, Google Photos, Play Music, Play Movies, Play Games, Play Books, Duo, Google+, and YouTube could all be called as crapware since they aren't required for core phone functions (and upsell for-profit services).

I guess it is somewhat a discussion what we mean by "crapware." But I'd argue most reasonable definitions include at least some of Google's pre-installed apps.

[neya]

> That isn't really accurate, you're just defining "crapware" is such a way so that Google's apps don't qualify. That's a double standard.

I need to clarify - I'm not an Apple hater, I own an iPhone, 2 iPads, 2 Macbook Pros and a Mac Mini at the time of this comment.

But, this same logic can be applied to Apple as well. For example, I don't use Apple's photos app at all. And I can't delete it. There is absolutely no way to even replace it. The same logic applies to Apple's crappy music app as well. I use Spotify 100% of the time. Not to mention the constant push to upgrade to Apple music on a system default app is unacceptable.

The photos app isn't crucial to my iPad's core functions. Yet I get constantly harassed with upgrade to iCloud bullshit constantly. Same thing goes with App Store as well, which has no way to turn off upgrade notifications. This is even true of Mac OS X as well, where I get notified constantly to upgrade to Mojave when I have no plans to do so...so that Apple can make my system slower and force me to upgrade my otherwise perfectly functional Mac. It's not like they haven't done this in the past, so...that's the real double standard I would argue.

[olyjohn]

What really pissed me off with the last iOS upgrade was the change the made to HomeKit. I had it connected up with my WeMo and Philips Hue devices, and could use Siri to turn on lights, etc.

After the upgrade, I was suddenly required to sign into HomeKit with my Apple ID. What for? It was all working fine without it. None of my "smart" devices need a cloud connection to function. I prefer to not connect everything to the cloud when my home network works just fine for me. Since I refuse to sign in out of spite for this change, now I can't control things with Siri.

[iscrewyou]

You can remove most of the non-essential apps like Music, iTunes Store, Maps, News.

I consider Photos and essential app to the phone. But the push to iCloud could be annoying (I haven’t experienced it because I already have it). If I remember correctly, android phones come with a Gallery App for Photos and then additionally Google Photos. This was a few years ago, I’m not sure if it has changed. Whereas iPhones come with Photos and the iCloud functionality built in.

[madeofpalk]

Well, no, you can just hide the icon on the screen. That’s all that does, just like how you can ‘disable’ Facebook on the Samsung phones.

[saagarjha]

> Well, no, you can just hide the icon on the screen. That’s all that does

This is no longer true since some version of iOS 11. Deleting apps removes them from your system, and you must redownload them from the App Store to get them back. However, while the application bundle might be removed from your device, the frameworks it relies on don't.

[dragonwriter]

Disabling system apps on Android doesn't just hide the icon, it stops the app from running (e.g., via intents or other means by which you can run an app without clicking on the icon.) It's in practical effect no different than deleting a non-system app, except that physically the app is still in immutable storage on the device and can be reenabled without being downloaded (barring any subsequent updates to the bundled system version, which would need to be downloaded.)

[rahoulb]

There are functional differences on iOS. For example if you “delete” Apple Music, Siri loses the ability to tell you what song is playing on Spotify (although I haven’t tried it since the original option to delete was added)

[vatueil]

Functionally, isn't that much the same as disabling an Android system app?

I wonder if these articles would cease if Android simply changed the label "disable" to "delete" and removed the ability to view and re-enable disabled apps.

[saagarjha]

Android system apps can be reenabled without redownloading them, IIRC. On iOS you must download the app again to use it.

[iscrewyou]

I don’t think that’s what it does.

When you redownload a now-deleted-preloaded app, it actually downloads it. You can see the progression in the App Store. Which makes me think that Apple actually removes the App package from the phone.

[jdmichal]

This is how disabling apps in Android works also. There is a baseline version baked into the ROM, but any updates are installed into normal memory. Disabling the app removes the updates from normal memory, so when you enable the app again it will (likely) need to update.

[rchaud]

> I consider Photos and essential app to the phone.

So do I, but OS vendors are making that experience worse by 'integrating' it to some cloud bullshit whether I want it to or not.

My Galaxy S7 (with all the bloatware the article mentions) was replaced with an "Android One" device from Nokia. First thing I noticed on the Nokia was that the only gallery app was Google Photos, which I want nothing to do with.

The Galaxy S7 had Google Photos, but also Samsung's stock Gallery app, which I greatly preferred because it acts exactly like the dumb pipe I want it to. Same with Samsung Music. On the Nokia, I had to install an alternative app because Play Music is unusable with the constant nagging to join their streaming service.

[bobthepanda]

You can turn off iCloud sync in iOS, and you can even do it for Photos specifically. I do because I don't care to have it backed up to iCloud, which I don't pay for.

[cannonedhamster]

You know what you can't do with iOS? Use a 3.5mm jack. :D Realistically though I found iOS to be too restrictive and I dislike that there's only one theme that's available. It was far too bright for my eyes at night even with it turned all the way down. Checking my phone at night would often wake my wife. I can't believe that iOS doesn't have a dark theme.

[int_19h]

> If I remember correctly, android phones come with a Gallery App for Photos and then additionally Google Photos.

It depends on the phone. On Pixel devices, which is arguably the closest on the Android side to Apple phones in terms of being curated, it's just Photos, plus the ability to swipe back in the camera app.

[bobthepanda]

The Photos App is pretty much the end-all, be-all of accessing photos taken by the iPhone's camera. So it makes sense that it's a default app that is uninstallable.

[moron4hire]

I get constantly bugged to upgrade to Mojave on my work computer, where corporate IT policy has disabled being able to install it. So the installer can tell I can't do it, but not the notifier.

[simulate]

This is identical to how all other phone OS vendors work where the OS vendor pre-installs apps as part of their ecosystem. If you consider them crapware, then there are no major mobile OS vendors who don't install crapware.

iPhone preinstalls 42 apps, not all of which can be easily deleted: App Store, Calculator, Calendar, Camera, Clock, Compass, Contacts, FaceTime, Files, Find My Friends, Find My iPhone, Game Center, Health, Home, iBooks, iCloud Drive, iMovie, iTunes Store, iTunes U, Keynote, Mail, Maps, Messages, Music, News, Notes, Numbers, Pages, Passbook, Phone, Photos, Podcasts, Reminders, Safari, Settings, Stocks, Tips, TV, Videos, Voice Memos, Wallet, Watch, Weather

Android comes with 29 preinstalled apps, and like iPhone some of them cannot be easily deleted: Android Pay, Calculator, Calendar, Camera, Chrome, Clock, Contacts, Docs, Downloads, Drive, Duo, Gmail, Google, Google+, Keep, Maps, Messages, News & Weather, Phone, Photos, Play Books, Play Games, Play Movies & TV, Play Music, Play Store, Settings, Sheets, Slides, YouTube

[judge2020]

(as said in the other comment thread): you can delete many stock apps in iOS:

https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208094

[vatueil]

If the default apps are restored after a factory reset then "deleting" a built-in app in iOS isn't really any different from disabling an Android system app.

[saagarjha]

Apple distinguishes between deleting apps and hiding them: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT204221

[tapland]

It reads just like the android way of disabling: Removes cache and user data, if you go to the app-store to 'enable' it again it has a small install file already on system and either automatically updates before use (iOS) or puts available updates in the download queue (android).

[vatueil]

What happens if you resell an iPhone from which you've "deleted" apps such as Contacts, Maps, and Music? Does wiping and resetting the device restore it to stock condition, including those default apps?

If not, that seems potentially confusing for secondhand users. Some apps such as Phone and Photos cannot be removed in any way, but users may still be confused if other default apps are missing.

[sfotm]

iPhones now let you uninstall almost all of those. I know Safari and the App Store are two of the rare exceptions.

[drdaeman]

Safari, AppStore, Phone, Messages, Clock, Photos, Camera, Health, Settings. I think that's the full list of the apps that can't be removed from iPhone.

[merb]

Calculator?

[lzy]

Can be deleted as well.

[gregknicholson]

How very generous of them!

Not getting at you personally here :) just... it's astonishing how quickly we've gotten used to the idea that you'll pay hundreds of dollars for a licence to use a device that you're not really in control of.

[ghettoimp]

Hyperbole...

You see a lack of control over your own device. I see someone else managing my device for me so that I don't have to think about it.

You see the app store locking you in. I see it protecting me from malware and keeping me secure.

I know you're right and I should care more.

You can appreciate how nice it would be to just let someone else figure it all out and take care of it for you.

"A man is rich in proportion to the number of things which he can afford to let alone." - Thoreau

[gregknicholson]

I agree it's good to have someone else looking after your device for you.

But Samsung's flavour of Android is not that. You have to pay extra attention because you can't trust it not to trick you into something you don't want — “agreeing” to adverts or sending personal data. You're constantly batting away flies. It's user-hostile, not user-friendly.

This is why I prefer Fedora to Windows: the intent of the person managing my device for me is to make a useful tool (not to enhance my experience in association with select commercial partners), and this aligns with my goals.

Peace of mind is precisely why well-maintained free software is more user-friendly than consumer shovelware.

(My job involves testing a website. This week I used a Samsung Galaxy S5. Peel Remote™ has to be an extremely elaborate parody… right?)

[zepto]

Almost all of the apps you listed can be deleted just like any other. Are you trying to create a misleading comparison on purpose?

[JoshTriplett]

You can remove all of the Google apps, though. (You can't remove the storage space they take up on the phone's ROM, as they ship on the stock device so that they don't need a download at setup time, but you can completely disable them so that they're treated as not installed.)

Also, these days, people consider photos, music, videos, email, and similar to be core phone functions; frankly, many people use them more often than they make phonecalls.

(Personally, I disable around half of those apps, along with Chrome.)

[ptero]

> these days, people consider photos, music, videos, email, and similar to be core phone functions

Yes, which is why I want full freedom to choose clients and apps that would be doing this on my phone.

[fanzhang]

I disagree with a definition of crapware that emphasizes the inability to remove, rather than the clear crappyness. I would call the first mandatoryware.

To me, crapware is:

- Order of magnitude bad engineering by industry standards (esp if it is not customer centric).

- So bad that if it could be removed, a majority of people who know how would remove it immediately.

- So bad that if [FANG / anyone competent at software] designed an alternative, most people would switch to it.

Crapware for me is not identically equivalent to mandatoryware. I get the GNU-like hate for mandatoryware from some people, but it's useful to have a distinction between (potentially subpar) mandatoryware like IE in Windows XP, and the absolute rubbish that was Verizon Music Store on my 2005 flip phone.

[jrockway]

I mean... then Apple bundles crapware too. iTunes Store, Pages, Weather, Find Friends, and a bunch of other stuff that I put in a folder inside a folder and promptly forgot about when I got my first iPhone.

[gbear605]

Those are all deleteable since iOS 11

[rglullis]

Not defending Google's practices, but there is no double standard here. Apple's apps are also not removable in the iPhone.

[BurritoAlPastor]

Actually, most of them are removable! Only a few apps that are deeply tied to the system (Settings, Photos, App Store, Clock, Messages, etc) can’t be deleted, but you can remove Maps, Weather, Music, Calculator, etc.

[javagram]

Newer iOS does allow removing apps like Stocks, Weather, and Maps, although I don’t know if every trace is actually deleted.

I just deleted the built in Mail app from my iPhone and it worked fine.

[saagarjha]

> Newer iOS does allow removing apps like Stocks, Weather, and Maps, although I don’t know if every trace is actually deleted.

The app is deleted, but the frameworks and system assets it relies on are not.

[soperj]

Where does Siri fit in with your model there?