[antisthenes]

> Do you think that someone who follows all but one of those rules still deserves healthcare? All but two? What's the moral difference between someone who smokes and someone who hasn't taken heed of diet/exercise advice after getting heart surgery?

Yes. Yes.

Moral difference no idea, but neither one should expect to have society foot the entire bill for their bad habits.

> Where do you draw the line?

Probably around morbid obesity that's unrelated to genetic/chronic issues.

> Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, right?

By setting an unreasonable standard and saying no one under it has the ability to cast judgment is extremely anti-intellectual. If 2 people were telling you about health habits and one of them was an olympic athlete (who occasionally ate bacon), and the other was a random overweight person from the street, whose advice would you give more weight to?

[jlebar]

> Probably around morbid obesity that's unrelated to genetic/chronic issues.

The jury is still very much out on how common this is, isn't it? Who is going to make the decision of whether I am "at fault" for my obesity?

Also how many people actually choose to be morbidly obese? Like, suppose I am genetically predisposed to like "unhealthy foods" (scare quotes because we don't really know what that means). Does that excuse my obesity as genetically caused? How are you going to tell the difference between someone who "selfishly likes" unhealthy foods and someone who can't help themselves? More to the point, is there a difference?

> By setting an unreasonable standard and saying no one under it has the ability to cast judgment is extremely anti-intellectual. If 2 people were telling you about health habits and one of them was an olympic athlete (who occasionally ate bacon), and the other was a random overweight person from the street, whose advice would you give more weight to?

In the face of this claim that my argument is anti-intellectual, I think I get to be pedantic and say that this counter-argument is a straw-person and equivocates.

I am saying that I don't think an Olympic athelete should pass moral judgement on other people. But of course an expert can pass intellectual judgment on ideas (e.g. "candy is healthy").

I can't believe I'm here as an athiest defending Jesus, but there you go. :)

[antisthenes]

> Also how many people actually choose to be morbidly obese? Like, suppose I am genetically predisposed to like "unhealthy foods" (scare quotes because we don't really know what that means). Does that excuse my obesity as genetically caused? How are you going to tell the difference between someone who "selfishly likes" unhealthy foods and someone who can't help themselves? More to the point, is there a difference?

I'm sorry but this is insane. Are we just abolishing any notion of personal responsibility whatsoever? I can't and won't argue from that first principle so we're going to have to disagree here fundamentally.

What if I can't help myself but grope women? What if I'm genetically predisposed to violence? Or kleptomania? Those things also impose a heavy cost on society, but if I just can't help myself, am I really at fault?

> How are you going to tell the difference between someone who "selfishly likes" unhealthy foods and someone who can't help themselves? More to the point, is there a difference?

Of course there's a difference. If your willpower is not sufficient to correct your obesity, then you should take other, more radical steps that do. And if you don't, then you're just selfishly externalizing your problems to society.

> But of course an expert can pass intellectual judgment on ideas (e.g. "candy is healthy")

Good, at least we can agree on something. So to answer the first part of your post, you should ask an expert on obesity. I'm not one, so if their judgment differs from mine, I'll stand corrected. But until then, I'll be of the opinion that most obesity cases are not genetic.

[jlebar]

> you should ask an expert on obesity. I'm not one, so if their judgment differs from mine, I'll stand corrected. But until then, I'll be of the opinion that most obesity cases are not genetic.

You're saying you have no expertise in this, haven't spent any time reading the literature or consulting with experts, but you nonetheless are going to continue having a strong opinion on this question? What is the basis for this opinion on a question of fact? Hopefully it's not than the fact that fat people are icky and so must be morally at fault for their failings?

[antisthenes]

I can ask you the same thing, but in reverse. What is your strong opinion on believing that people should have no responsibility for the obesity, when we know it is caused mostly by over-eating?

Why do you presume people are completely hopeless at controlling what they put in their stomach?

How many experts did you consult with to form your opinion?

[jlebar]

> What is your strong opinion on believing that people should have no responsibility for the obesity, when we know it is caused mostly by over-eating?

We don't know that obesity is caused mostly by over-eating.

Many basic questions about diet are unsolved, including the reason(s) that some people gain weight while others don't and the reasons that the vast majority of people can't lose weight. We just do not know to what extent do genetics, gut flora, lifestyle, and diet affect weight. We also don't know what makes for a "good" diet, or whether the same diet is good for everyone.

This is not obscure knowledge. Literally if you google "what causes obesity?" you'll get pages like this: https://stanfordhealthcare.org/medical-conditions/healthy-li...

> How many experts did you consult with to form your opinion?

I spend a lot of social time around doctors, and I read a fair amount of medical literature (for someone who isn't in the medical sciences, anyway).

I am not claiming to be an expert, but I am claiming to be somewhat informed, yes.

I am also claiming, more strongly, that before we as a society punish someone for causing something we'd better be pretty damn sure that the person actually did cause the thing, with mens rea and so on. I am claiming that the scientific evidence is not there for obesity.

[antisthenes]

> We don't know that obesity is caused mostly by over-eating.

No, that part is obvious and we do know that more calories results in more weight. There's no debate. The only debate is in what causes over-eating.

> Many basic questions about diet are unsolved, including the reason(s) that some people gain weight while others don't and the reasons that the vast majority of people can't lose weight. We just do not know to what extent do genetics, gut flora, lifestyle, and diet affect weight. We also don't know what makes for a "good" diet, or whether the same diet is good for everyone.

Also flat out not true. You're creating some ridiculous standard for "knowledge" when in reality, you only have to have "good enough" knowledge in order to be healthy and not obese. Most people can easily adhere to, but for whatever reason, don't.

> This is not obscure knowledge. Literally if you google "what causes obesity?" you'll get pages like this: https://stanfordhealthcare.org/medical-conditions/healthy-li....

Yes, and? The answers are not equally weighted. Just because there are 3 answers, doesn't mean each answer is equally responsible in the cause of obesity.

> I am not claiming to be an expert, but I am claiming to be somewhat informed, yes.

I am claiming the same. My parents are biomolecular scientists and for them it is not contentious that overeating causes obesity. If we're giving weight to anecdotal evidence, I'm entitled to at least give my own evidence the same weight as you do yours.

> I am claiming that the scientific evidence is not there for obesity.

And there are people claiming that anthropogenic global warming is a myth, despite scientific evidence otherwise. However, I'll take claims that are true (overeating causes obesity - replicated many times), over claims that may or may not be true.

Please realize that you're in the minority on this, but the science is already settled. It's ok to admit that you're wrong.

[jlebar]

From one of the world's foremost experts on the brain: https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/revising-fault-line

[antisthenes]

I'll gladly read that in a textual format. Podcasts tend to be long-winded with a lot of useless fluff.

If you have a link to one of his papers, I'll gladly peruse it.

[jlebar]

https://www.amazon.com/Behave-Biology-Humans-Best-Worst/dp/1...

[jlebar]

BTW this podcast episode is literally talking about exactly the question that you were asking, namely, to what extent can people have responsibility for actions?

Might be worth your time at 2x speed. Or not, I dunno.

[Nasrudith]

The whole point against it is that there are precedents being set regardless of what you think is 'right' it will start to apply to other things in the model that you agree with far less - especially when they go off of assumptions that turn out to be objectively wrong.

It is essentially a bill of rights thing - either you support universal rights for everyone or you support them being taken away whenever convenient a.k.a. no rights at all for anyone.

Just go back as shallowly historically speaking as AIDS in the 80s. "Only gays and drug users get AIDS so why should we pay to help those degenerates?" sounds downright satirically stupid but that was essentially a real viewpoint and sadly still is really. Judging the 'guilt' of patients is a very dangerous thing for a society to do and doesn't help the underlying health problem at all.