[realusername]

> France in particular still operates a monetary zone that operates in 14 African countries in its former colonial obit

The countries are free to leave the Franc CFA, some of them did and came back, having a stable currency you can trust on in the region is invaluable so they keep it on purpose. Especially that they can trade with their neighbours much more easily.

[kolikotime]

While we can debate the relative merits and demerits of the CFA, it is still quite very strange and quite frankly colonial that the arrangement continues.And there have been coups in the past in the West African subregion which call into doubt this argument that Francophone African states have much sovereignty to change the situation.

Furthermore, regardless of the relative merits and demerits of the monetary zone, it can't be denied that France has an overt influence on its former colonies. Most of West Africa is essentially a French backyard policywise as France's political economy is highly dependent on African natural resources(Oil from Gabon, Uranium from Niger, Maganese and phosphate from some of the smaller Franco West African states). France's behavior is quite strange especially when one can see how Britain, Spain, Portugal and Italy largely don't politically matter on the continent anymore.

Lastly, one just has to compare the state of Francophone African states towards most of the Anglo states, they are on by definition normally poorer and more fragile. The likes of Togo, Mali, Niger, Chad, Burkina Faso, Central African Republic, and Guinea are on the whole basketcases, and play a part in why West Africa, which is the region China has lended to the most is the poorest.

[realusername]

> While we can debate the relative merits and demerits of the CFA, it is still quite very strange and quite frankly colonial that the arrangement continues.

It continues because it's becoming an African euro-zone, having the same currency is invaluable. Especially that the African currencies don't have a reputation for stability. It's not a coincidence Mali & Guinea left and then came back in.

> Lastly, one just has to compare the state of Francophone African states towards most of the Anglo states, they are on by definition normally poorer and more fragile

I don't really agree with that, you have counter example in both cases, on my case I could point Cote d'Ivoire where the Bank of Africa is located and on the other Anglo side you have Uganda which isn't exactly an example of a rich country, the Franc CFA definitely helped for that.

[kolikotime]

West Africa, the region with the most greatest number of Francophone states and influence is largely the poorest African region(some like to argue Central Africa, but people debate its composition and shape more readily than West Africa). My experiences in the region often reveal great resentment with the nature of French involvement within their political economy. Now you may disagree with that and think its all hunky dory in those countries, but for me its quite strange as a Ghanaian American to see, and we often feel sorry for them. We feel especially sorry for Togo, our bordering country next door which has lived under a family dynasty for 51 years, a dynasty overtly supported by France.

And we definitely felt sorry for Ivory Coast when French special forces busted into their presidential palace to resolve a domestic electoral dispute. But hey CFA Franc, stability and all that, yeah!

[ethbro]

> And we definitely felt sorry for Ivory Coast when French special forces busted into their presidential palace to resolve a domestic electoral dispute.

You're referring to French forces arresting Laurent Gbagbo when he refused to cede power after losing the 2010 election?

Allowing his winning opponent to assume the presidency? Extraditing Gbagbo to stand trial at ICC in The Hague? Where there's a chance he might be acquitted of the crimes against humanity he's charged with for formenting election violence that killed 1,400+ people?

As far as terrible abuses of colonial power, enabling the transition to a democratically elected government and trying the former leader in a fair court of law (where he stands a chance of defending himself) isn't the best example.

[kolikotime]

Some will say that it was a good intervention, in my opinion it is the continued and sustained pattern of French intervention that has resulted in the continued fragile nature of these states. And oh please we all know it wasn't really about "democratization", it was about removing an opponent of French geopolitical aims.

Ivory Coast background - France enables a local despot, known as Felix Boigny, who does enable local economic growth but institutionalizes power to such an extent that the county falls into civil war and disrepair upon his death in the 1990s, leading to two civil wars in which France plays a major role.

Togo coup of 1963 in which France played a role - Togo remains a dictatorship for 53 years and now has a large and enraged protest movement. The regime has been responsible for the deaths of thousands of dissidents.

Cameroon's backing of Paul Biya - Despite his continued anti-democratic manners and blatant electoral rigging, France sticks by their man, leading to now a insurgent civil war in Anglophone Cameroon.

The Libyan intervention - What can be said that hasn't been said, a new failed state, arms flowing across the subregion which leads to trouble across the Sahel in Mali and Northern Nigeria.

And these are just a few examples.

[ethbro]

Nobody's arguing colonial history doesn't have a huge number of mistakes.

But now, at this moment, policy going forward -- if not supporting democracy, democratically elected leaders, and the regular, peaceful transition of power, then what?

It's easy to cast stones, but useless without a better, prescriptive alternative.

Non-intervention on the world's part is why Gaddafi (42 years), Biya (43), Obiang (39), dos Santos (38), Mugabe (37), Museveni (33), etc. have been able (and are still able, in many cases) to rule their countries for decades.

Or, as Obama put it in his interview with Seinfeld in response to a question about how many world leaders are crazy, "A pretty sizable percentage [...] Part of what happens is, these guys, I think the longer they stay in office, the more likely that is to happen."

[the_mitsuhiko]

I feel like at this point we have seen various different approaches to working with/in Africa and they are all not exactly a raving success.

[dovvdkc]

Free if the leader escapes the assasination attempt from the French special forces.

The Convertible franc was clearly an attempt from France to dilute the effects of its inflationary spending by spreading it over its former colonies.

[noch]

> The countries are free to leave the Franc CFA [...]

Claiming these former colonies are "free" is perhaps a deep misunderstanding of what "free" means. Consider: https://www.pambazuka.org/governance/france-still-robbing-it...

[realusername]

Pretty much every point in this article is demonstrably false and unsourced, it would take me a good 30min to debunk all of these (I might do it if I have time) but please don't trust anything written in this blog.

[noch]

> [...] it would take me a good 30min to debunk all of these (I might do it if I have time) [...]

Claiming something is demonstrably false, then saying 30 minutes is too much time to spend demonstrating alleged falsehoods, in a debate on a forum where you've already been engaged in other responses to the same debate over time...

I shared the article in good faith, as part of the debate. Am I then to assume the article (as well as others that suggest similar points[0]) is false simply because you've said so?

"It could be claimed that the countries that operate with these currencies might freely leave the arrangement at any time. In truth, dozens of African leaders, from Silvanus Olympio in Togo to Muammar Gaddafi in Libya, have tried in recent decades to replace these tools of monetary and financial control with a new common African currency. Almost all of them - with the possible exception of Malian President Modibo Keïta (1915-77) - have been killed or overthrown the very moment in which their attempts were close to succeeding." [1]

[0] http://blogs.lse.ac.uk/africaatlse/2017/07/12/the-cfa-franc-...

[1] https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/torpedoing-africa-...