[joshlemer]

>that a function of Maybe a should be a function of a without an API change is neither intuitive to me nor really justified by Hickey

He spent many minutes motivating it. If you support some functionality to a client (as a library, or a service, or more abstractly), and then later want to relax the constraints that you require from those clients, this should be an acceptable change that they shouldn't have to worry about / be broken by. Like if all of a sudden some REST api no longer requires a specific HTTP header to be present in requests, then this change shouldn't break clients that have been including that formerly-required header all along.

Similarly, if you provide something to clients, and you add functionality to provide a response in all circumstances, not just some, then this should not break clients either.

This clearly is not true of `Maybe` / `Option[T]` and I think it's a pretty fair critique. Maybe we should be using Union types in these situations instead.

[patrec]

His argument for spurious API breakage is strictly logically correct, but seems practically dubious to me. When have you ever had to unnecessarily break API compatibility because something you thought was an Option[T] result turned out to be really a T, always? Maybe I'm wrong and someone will post some convincing examples, but I currently don't see this as a problem that needs solving.

Union Types don't compose straightforwardly because they flatten; maybe this is desirable in some cases but the rationale in Hickey's talk leaves me unconvinced. The only practical use case for union types I'm aware of is smoother interfacing to dynamically typed APIs; any nice examples for something beyond that?

[gavinpc]

> When have you ever had to unnecessarily break API compatibility because something you thought was an Option[T] result turned out to be really a T, always?

That would be a breaking change. And should be, if you're into that sort of thing.

The objection is to the opposite case: What was a T is now an Option[T]. I don't know Scala specifically, but that's a breaking change in every typechecked language I know. Rich is arguing that it shouldn't be. But it could be possible even in typed languages through union types. For example, you can do this in TypeScript by changing T to T | undefined, which is a superset of T.

[patrec]

Nope, it's not the opposite case, I was just to lazy to spell it out. Which way around it is depends on whether it's a return value or parameter. Covariant vs contravariant. If it's a parameter an API change from T to Option[T] shouldn't break (you require less), whereas with a return type it's from Option[T] to T (you promise more).

[gr__or]

To be fair the "result"-part in "something you thought was an Option[T] result turned out to be really a T" makes it sound like you were speaking of the return-type to me as well. I appreciate the elboration though!

[gavinpc]

Yes, that was my fault, I overlooked "result," and I also appreciate the clarification.

I think the point remains that, while this is not a breaking change from a contractual viewpoint, most type systems would deem it incompatible.

[IshKebab]

I think you're kind of both agreeing. It would be nice if Maybe did work like he suggested, but in practice it's not that big a deal.