[baby]

I just want to bring up a difference that I've noticed living in both London and the US (Chicago and San Francisco). Note that I am also not trying to make a point here, as to what is better for a city. I think it's much more complex than spying on your citizen. Just trying to bring my perspective and things I've seen:

London is one the safest city I've lived in (along with Beijing). Chicago and San Francisco are the most unsafe cities I've lived in. People often don't realize this there, it's just that they have been desensitized to it.

I've seen countless accidents in the US, people getting bullied or mugged, cars getting broken in, homeless people everywhere (sometimes shooting themselves up with syringes). Walking in the streets at night can be really dangerous. Most people avoid public transport here and take uber.

On the other side you have London. You'd see single girls walking alone in the streets at 4am. Everyone takes the public transport, never seen anyone fight, almost no homeless people, everybody loves the cops. It's a different world.

[yakshaving_jgt]

> never seen anyone fight, almost no homeless people

…Do you live in a different London from me? You must be talking about London, Ontario, right?

There were at least three major Islamic terror attacks around my address in London in the past few years. I live just by Borough Market.

There were the three guys who drove the van into Borough Market and stabbed people, killing eight. There was the guy who drove his car into people on Westminster Bridge, killing five and injuring 50. There was also the murder of Lee Rigby in Woolwich, in the street in the middle of the day outside a primary school. Lee Rigby was a colleague of my best friend. My best friend and I were walking exactly where the murder was to take place a few weeks prior.

I'm also quite shocked you don't notice the homeless in London. Before I started my career in IT — when I was a broke musician — I used to eat with them every day. Hare Krishna feed the homeless most evenings in Holborn, and at the time on some nights you could get leftover Pret a Manger meals outside the Rymans on the Strand.

There's almost always people sleeping rough around London Bridge, and in many places all throughout the city. And if you enjoy the nightlife you're bound to see at least some street violence occasionally.

[baby]

> major Islamic terror attacks

just lol. They were a few crimes, nothing major, and nobody in London really cared or seemed to be affected. Please stop spreading FUD.

> I'm also quite shocked you don't notice the homeless in London

Have you been to San Francisco, Chicago or LA? There is really no comparison.

[yakshaving_jgt]

…Nobody seemed to be affected? Are you on drugs? People died.

And yes, I have been to SF and LA. I have walked through the tent cities and seen the people defecating in the streets. That was never the question, and your whataboutery is not constructive.

[chmod775]

Spending the absurd amount of money that's going towards building a surveillance state on making staircases safer instead will save several magnitudes more lifes each year.

That's not because a lot of people break their neck walking up stairs, it's because how disproportionate and irrational the response to the terror scare is.

If news reported on every case of people dying a preventable death while utilizing something we have learned to build in a safer manner by now, they'd do little else.

It just isn't as flashy as people blowing up.

[Something1234]

Dying a preventable death is kind of embarrassing for the family and the deceased. Especially if it was caused by improper use of something worthy of a Darwin award.

[chmod775]

Losing your balance and breaking your neck while falling down some stairs is hardly worthy of a darwin award.

About 12,000 people die each year falling down stairs in the US alone.

Going by these numbers the proportionate response would be to spend at least a trillion dollars each year for a war on unsafe stairs.

A war on cancer on the other hand would eat up more than the US's GDP if it was to be in any way propotionate to the cost of lives.

Either would be more effective than the war on terror or the surveillance state at saving lives though.

[baby]

Regular crime in the city, I haven't even heard of people talking about it. Maybe in the few days following the attack yes, but come on. That's just FUD.

[yakshaving_jgt]

Ok — French guy who lives in California — tell me — a guy from London — what life in London is like.

ಠ_ಠ

[shanghaiaway]

He has experience living in other global cities as a reference to London and you don't.

[paganel]

> On the other side you have London. You'd see single girls walking alone in the streets at 4am. Everyone takes the public transport, never seen anyone fight, almost no homeless people, everybody loves the cops. It's a different world.

You must have lived in the nicer parts of London, perhaps. I have a friend who has moved to London 6 months ago (her bf was already living there) and she told me that she's afraid of leaving her home all by herself after 8PM. She told me that while walking down the street she can "feel" the looks of the people whose religion I won't mention because I will probably get a ban, take that as you like.

[EngineerBetter]

Your friend's problem is that she's a bigot.

[paganel]

She had friends of the same religion here in Eastern Europe, but they were the kind of people that were staying at after parties at 7 in the morning. The people she now tells me about don’t look like they have shared a drink with a woman late at night anytime during their life. It’s easy to accuse someone of bigotism when you haven’t interacted directly with any of the talked-about people.

[scottlamb]

I'm going to guess that the religion in question is Islam, which forbids alcohol. Her being okay with the kind of Muslim who isn't religious enough to follow this proscription doesn't disprove her being a bigot. "Doesn't look like they have shared a drink with a woman late at night anytime during their life" is a poor basis for being afraid of someone. Many don't choose that lifestyle. Some will judge you for choosing it. Fewer will physically attack you for choosing it...

If they're leering at her (she said she can "feel" their looks, which could mean looks of moral judgement or of objectification/lust), I can start to understand why she'd be afraid. But there is a subjective element to interpreting others' body language, and bringing religion into the complaint makes me think prejudice might be coloring that.

[paganel]

As far as I could understand by talking with other women they can feel when other men look at them in “that” way, and they can feel if they should be frightened or not, and that “way” can look the more frightening the more those men haven’t had regular and normal interactions with women, no matter those men’s religion, that’s what my friend was afraid about. And yes, men that don’t have frequent and especially normal interactions with women do look more frightening to women, and it so happens that certain religions do impose (for whatever reasons) that men and women should live almost separate lives.

[scottlamb]

I've certainly heard similar things from women about "that" kind of look, and I wouldn't have really questioned it if religion weren't brought in. They might be right about if they "should" be frightened. I'm not going to say otherwise, and I support their personally doing what they need to feel safe, based on whatever information they think is best.

However, when it comes to setting public policy that trades off against individual liberty, authoritatively stating which of N cities is safest, and so on, I think the bar should be higher. Statements should be based on hard data such as numbers of violent attacks. This isn't practical for individuals (imagine: "based on extensive personal trials, I was murdered ten times as often by people who...") but is on the scale of cities/states/countries.

[michaelgrafl]

Then you're the one who's bigoted for bringing up religion in the first place, when that's not really the reason for your friend to be scared.

[baby]

That's a weird take to be honest. Muslim people here are very integrated, the mayor is muslim himself. I haven't heard of this kind of problem except for Luton. Which is not London.

[0db532a0]

I don’t know what you mean when you say that the Muslims are integrated in London. This is not the way I view things at all. It seems like a knee-jerk reaction many people have when another person complains about Muslims. Why should they even necessarily be integrated? This is just London.

Since time immemorial, London has a lot of separate cultures, each doing their own thing. Sometimes people interact too, which is also nice. Walk down Bethnal Green Road one day. Observe the locals of Bangladeshi descent wearing their traditional clothing, going to their sweet shops, jewellers and butchers, speaking their language. I wouldn’t call this integration.

[baby]

what I meant is that people from different culture and background seems to hang out together a lot as opposed to among them.

[weego]

I'll take it as one uninformed bigot spreading the word of another uninformed bigot.

[faissaloo]

I'm far more concerned about the weekly stabbing than whatever this is supposed to be.

[Latteland]

It's not possible to believe London got better because of all the cameras added the last few years (which accomplish little or nothing). It hasn't gotten safer because of surveillance. Just like in the us, the fact that the border patrol takes people's phones at a high rate hasn't made it any safer. It's just improved spying.

[michaelgrafl]

I've been to London twice, and compared with Vienna I felt less safe, especially when riding the Tube as opposed to the U-Bahn. Even Berlin felt chill to me in comparison.

Not that my feelings are a good indication of anything, but comparing any European city to San Francisco and Chicago will leave you with a similar conclusion regarding personal safety.

[aeesop]

i disagree

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/dec/20/death-in-wes...

[Maken]

Have you ever been in other European cities?

[baby]

Pretty much all over the place. Lived in a few different places in France. It's usually relatively safe, except in suburbs.

[ionised]

This is not the London I know of.