[TarpitCarnivore]

Not OC, but for me it's just a real wonder why it's not better embraced at this stage of the game. We have all the tools to accommodate collaboration within remote teams and in (most) places the broadband to handle it. Add to this the continued funneling of companies into these metro areas where COL is high (NYC, SF, Seattle) and thus people may find themselves being forced into higher commute times just to attain a better COL situation.

I personally am commuting close to 2 hours each way, so 4 hours total, because the job market is much stronger in NYC then my immediate (30-45 minute) area. If a job is open around here the salaries are almost 30-40% lower than NYC despite our COL still being high.

[ptd]

We have tools to accommodate collaboration but I believe something gets lost when you remove those water cooler conversations and physical interaction.

In regards to your commute, wouldn't a 40% lower salary be worth 4 extra hours everyday? I guess it depends on the math but unless you're being compensated for the commute(in which case it's just work on the train/metro) that seems like an incredible sacrifice for a bigger paycheck. At what point is your time worth it?

[Klathmon]

That watercooler talk getting lost is absolutely a pain point with remote work, but there are mitigations and benefits that offset it in my opinion.

One option is to re-create that talk. At a past job we would often all fuck around before/after standup calls for a bit, but sometimes that fucking around became work and solved problems. Other times we would just call each other either one-on-one or in small groups just to shoot the shit, and that can recreate that same feeling.

A big part of that is getting over the idea that "calls" are somehow different than walking over to someone's desk, you wouldn't hesitate most of the time to walk over to a coworker and start chatting, but most people hesitate to call someone on slack. At a past job that hesitation wasn't there because the culture embraced it, and suddenly we had our watercooler talk back, just over video calls.

[TarpitCarnivore]

> One option is to re-create that talk

One remote first company I interviewed with told me all their daily calls were video because they wanted to make sure people still felt human. And I think it's such a crucial piece in all this because people have been accustomed to just doing audio only which only further creates a sense of loneliness.

[kbsletten]

Yeah. I'm remote at a mostly collocated company and I'm always trying to get my face on other people's screens whether that's a stand-up or not screen sharing off the bat during demos or even just over-commenting in group chats to get at least my name out there.

It's worth it though, and when I'm on-site I get people talking to me that I've never met who recognize me from somewhere I was on a screen.

[ozim]

That is the most obvious problem with developers, thinking that you can solve people problems with tools.

So you are right something is lost. Skype, jira, slack will not convey the feeling that there is another person on the other side of line. You will not see coworkers getting sick, going through hardships in life. If you see someone you can tell he had bad night sleep that is why he is upset. You get the watercooler conversation that other guy wife is annoying... You don't care it should not affect quality of work but no one is robot, via electronic communication everything seems so perfect... Then you expect people to be perfect, and they expect from you to be perfect, then you get upset, but you just have flu and cannot focus really...

[TarpitCarnivore]

By tools I meant for collaborating, not replacing humans. I'm not some robot who just wants to sit head down because I'm terrible at socializing. I do enjoy being in the office to see faces, but I also have realized this not a very strong argument for having every company be so resisting to remote work.

And as I stated you can replace this in other ways. Because you're home you may end up at a gym or coffee shop or group bike rides more often. That gives you a different form of social interaction in the day to day to replace "water cooler" talk.

[TarpitCarnivore]

I think "water cooler" talk is over stated because many companies will have different channels to discuss these kinds of things. You no doubt loose the face to face human interaction, but there are other ways to account for this. Getting out and socializing with people via hobbies can help greatly here.

As for the commute, I've worked out a flexible work schedule that lets me be home a few days but as I stated I'm in a higher COL state (NJ). So a 30-40% reduction in pay ends up being a fairly big change in QOL. I've learned to make use of the time on the train by engaging in things I enjoy (video games, podcasts) which may be harder at home. Moving closer also doesn't help because A. it gets even more expensive B. QOL drops due to higher density areas which makes it harder to ride bikes, garden, etc.

We've accepted the choice we make to be where we are because of what we get from our life outside of work, but it doesn't mean I can't hope for better remote possibilities.

[shaklee3]

It's not overstated. The only people I've heard say this are the ones that prefer remote work. You're definitely more productive around where the action is happening than in a house with kids screaming.

[kbsletten]

First off, forgive me if I don't take your word for it, but I just saw an article recently saying that remote workers are more productive on average. Whether that study was just an anomaly or there's some other explanation like "only productive programmers can manage working remotely", it would hint that your hot take represents the world as you imagine it, not necessarily the world as it is.

Secondly there's something like a "no true Scotsman" vibe about the implication that you can't trust people who prefer remote work to comment on their productivity like you can people who are onsite. That may not be the right fallacy, but there's a fallacy in there somewhere.

Thirdly, nobody should be working with kids crying. God invented doors for just this reason. If you can't make a quieter space at home than you can at work, you're either pulling in some serious perks on the job with your private, sound insulated office or you don't have the fundamental amenities to work at home, it's not the nature of working remote, it's showing up to work unprepared that's holding you back.

[ptd]

Fair enough. Different strokes. Giving up on hope is a scary wormhole, always keep dreaming.

[TarpitCarnivore]

My time is absolutely valuable and I make it abundantly clear on any phone screens for new roles. I've established my own set hours within the office to accommodate the long commute without impeding my life more than it has to. But the reality of going from 100k -> 60k in a high COL state is quite a change. It's entirely possible, we've been there, but it def requires you to readjust. And as the cost of certain goods keep rising it's not as easy as it was for us 3-5 years ago.

[fredbo22]

At my last gig, "water cooler" conversations were discouraged because SLack conversations were archived and searchable. No need to wonder what someone said last week, last month or last year. It's all there and ready to read.

It was kind of stupid to come into work when this rule is in effect.

[ptd]

Is that even legal?

[todd3834]

Probably not illegal to discourage but maybe illegal to ban

[lowercased]

i've found some of the 'water cooler' talk could easily foster gossip and cliques, leading to people "in the know" getting tapped for special projects and promotions, simply because they 'fit in' with a particular manager better, skills be damned. The 'smoke break' phenom too - if your boss smokes, figure out a way to get out there and spend time - that's their water cooler time, and the spoils go to the other smokers.

Of course it's not 100% that way, but my own experience has seen it play out a few times that way.

[gedy]

> those water cooler conversations

You mean managers and owners getting to oversee "their people".

[ptd]

That's definitely a part of it. Much easier to hold people accountable when you physically interact with them. If your manager or owner is abusing this, then I imagine working for them remote would involve a webcam and a key logger. Good managers usually find ways to motivate their workers, but it is definitely harder when you never get to physically interact.

[souprock]

For true remote with employees at their homes, security failures become far more likely.

There is a middle ground. One can open up small offices in small cities. For example, instead of 1000 people in a city of 5,000,000 people, it could be 20 people in 50 cities that have 100,000 people. Each site gets a VPN connection, with the hardware physically secured in a commercial building.

The COL goes way down. The commute becomes tiny for most people. I'm in that situation, and my commute is 3 minutes if I use a car.