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by adwhit 2741 days ago
I’m sold, let’s get rid of the part of the government that costs the most and delivers the least. I’m talking about the military, of course.
4 comments

1. US military is only 16-18% of federal spending. Entitlements like social security, medicaid, and welfare make up 65-70% of federal spending. The majority of military spending is on salaries and benefits anyway, it's essentially a welfare program itself

>delivers the least

2. most major advancements in tech and healthcare are due to the military. Silicon Valley was built on military spending. Self driving cars were initially funded by DARPA. AI was funded by military. If you have a job in the tech industry you can thank the US military

There's also the minor detail of the US navy making global trade possible and the strength of the US military making traditional war pointless which has resulted in the last few decades being the most peaceful in human history in terms of probability of dying in combat

> 2. most major advancements in tech and healthcare are due to the military.

Can you back that up? That military spending has been high gives no guarantee that having spent the same money in the private sector wouldn't have led to even better results and advancements.

https://steveblank.com/secret-history/

The military spends on R&D where it makes zero business sense for a for-profit company to spend. Private companies must be profitable.

Still, the question remains: Can we say a priori that the funds for R&D military spending wouldn't have been spent better by the private sector?
private sector doesnt do basic research and has a short view of things because of the drive towards profitability.

gov't-funded R&D is why we have nice things. everyone strategically forgets that silicon valley exists because of bottomless cold war spending, so silicon valley's obsession with the superiority of the private sector is ever ironic

Honestly, no.

The private sector is generally very, very heavy on short-termism. Even when companies do have internal long-term research initiatives, there is often a strong aversion to pursuing research that could cannibalize high-margin products.

Unequivocally, no, the reasons are stated in the post you're replying to.

Which private, for profit, company would spend five (5) billion dollars (unadjusted for inflation) to launch GPS satellites into space and then allow their unlimited use free of cost to anyone in the world who has a receiver? That cost doesn't even account for ongoing maintenance.

Maybe no company would do exactly that, but that is irrelevant. Companies would do other things with that money. Maybe they would have cured some disease instead. Maybe they would have found another breakthrough technology. Who knows.

And there is nothing free about using those satellites. Tax payers pay for their launch and subsequent maintenance and running costs.

From an economics point of view, an unnecessary job is inefficient not because it gives people money (they can spend it efficiently on themselves), but because it wastes people's time when they could be doing something else. (Not to mention other wasted resources.)

Social security is efficient because it doesn't have this problem.

There are two sorts of efficiency percentage and wisdom - one can heat their house at greater than 100% efficiency by burning money and priceless.

However you really shouldn't be using them that way since there are far better uses for the value.

Ok, do you need to maintain 1,000 military bases around the globe? 500 wouldn't do it?

What about the F-35?

> I’m sold, let’s get rid of the part of the government that costs the most and delivers the least. I’m talking about the military, of course.

This is the same tortured logic that leads to cost-cutting with regards to IT security expenditures.

There hasn't been a world war for two thirds of a century now, and US and their trade partners enjoy safe trade routes.

I wouldn't call it "not delivering".

The mess the US foreign policy of the previous administration caused in Middle East alone ( not counting Ukraine and Libya ) has an immense cost and no real benefit. Of course others are left alone to pay the bill.

I would call that a total failure by any possible interpretation.

You can only call that a total failure if you ignore the entirety of human history and compare it to some fantasy of world peace instead. It's good to thrive for a better world, and notice when things go worse, but when evaluating effectiveness of american military as a whole, you should compare it to a time before Pax Americana.

Also, did I understand you correctly: you not only want to cut american military spending, but also keep US morally responsible for situation in Ukraine?... Now, both these viewpoints are to some extent reasonable, if they come from corresponding first principles. But I can't possibly imagine how the same person can hold these two views at the same time: they completely contradict each other. Either US is responsible for events across the globe, OR it shouldn't have a huge military - how on Earth can you believe both?!

What is the US supposed to do? You literally cited two cases, Ukraine and Libya, which are polar opposites. Ukraine the US is criticized for NOT intervening, middle east and Libya US is criticized FOR intervening.

And now we have Myanmar muslim situation and Yemen where people are begging for US intervention, but in all probability if we intervened we would be getting criticized for it by the same people asking us to intervene in a few years

The US is intervening in Yemen; without our support for the Saudis incinerating people there, there wouldn't be a war.

We also certainly intervened in Ukraine by fomenting a coup there. Rolling tanks there would probably be WW-3.

None of these interventions has made life better for anyone other than the evil ding dongs at Brookings and in the Pentagon.

> There hasn't been a world war for two thirds of a century now

African World War (1998-2003). Five million people killed. With nine countries fighting, I think that it qualifies perfectly as a world war.

>and US and their trade partners enjoy safe trade routes

Bingo, and that's from the Navy and the U.S. Coast Guard actively patrolling GLOBAL waters.

Maritime piracy alone is a considerable economic threat, yes in the 21st century. An estimated 2 BILLION dollars a year is spent on naval operations just off the coast of Somalia (PDF WARNING - PDF WARNING - PDF WARNING http://www.ics-shipping.org/docs/default-source/Piracy-Docs/... )

In this article from 2014 ( https://worldmaritimenews.com/archives/134829/annual-global-... ), again just Somalia, "The OEF estimates the total cost of piracy off the coast of Somalia at US$7–US$12 billion in 2010; US$6.6–US$6.9 billion in 2011 42 and US$5.7–US$6.1 billion in 2012".

Between 2008 and 2012 alone JUST the U.S. Navy responded to 1139 piracy incidents https://www.navy.mil/ah_online/antipiracy/index.html that's an average of 0.78 incidents a day.

It's not just the U.S. patrolling either. China has launched at least 20 anti-piracy floatillas since 2009 http://cimsec.org/chinas-anti-piracy-flotillas-by-the-number...

Military in the US is 18% of the budget. SS and medicare are something like 70%.

If you want to live in a country without a military there are a bunch of them. I wouldn't personally want to live in any of them, but of course everyone is free to do as they see fit.

Iceland has no military spending Ireland spends 0.4% of it's GDP on military Switzerland 0.7% Sweden 1% Finland (who have actually been invaded in living memory) 1.4%

The U.S. spent $574b on defence and $79b on veterans last year, both increased way above inflation - total of $57b. Education by comparision dropped by 14%, or $9b. Health by 18% or $15b.

The largest slice of the U.S. budget is healthcare (mainly medicare/medicaid). This cost $5,500 per citizen, despite only covering 1/3rd of the population. This is because the U.S. health care system is fundamentally broken, and costs about 3 times as much per person in europe.

Without the US military all of these countries would be required to fund a large military to avoid being conquered. Pax Americana has allowed Europe to shirk their responsibilities, but some people would argue its worth it to the US.
i keep seeing this canard whenever military spending arises.

tell me: who would invade?

germany has no ambition to conquer france. poland has a buffer to protect it from the russians. estonia is in NATO.

seriously, what threat is going to suddenly gobble up europe?

oh yeah, and where are the millions of US troops currently stationed in europe that would supposedly stop the threat?

Russia would absolutely invade / interfere with ex-Soviet states if they didn’t have the protection of NATO. See: Ukraine.
I believe you are quite foolish if you think an opportunistic power wouldn't invade if they had the opportunity.
It doesn't take millions to make that kind of aggression politically unpalatable.
Iceland has no military spending

Not entirely true. It has no standing army, but it does have a militarized coast guard, air defense systems and an air force base it maintains, as well as a small Crisis Response Unit that can be deployed internationally. In addition it is a full NATO member for which it has certain costs.

That's an incredibly naïve view of military spending since those countries are subsided by the American military.
You get to have that system because the US has taken on the role of global police and funds our military at a level commensurate to that role.

If you funded your military appropriately, we wouldn't have to fund your defense.

Your comment about healthcare is so simplistic it's not even worth a reply, but I'll simply note that the vast majority are not on medicare or medicaid and are covered by private insurance. Your assertion that the system is broken is simplistic and uninformed (ETA, I'm not saying the system isn't broken, there are many issues with healthcare in the US, but "just be like Europe" isn't going to work for so many reasons it's not really feasible to list them here).

The US spends $10200 a year per head on healthcare, most of it ($8k a year) government or compulsory spending.

Canada spends $4800 a year on healthcare in total -- under half that of the U.S. Israel spends $2800.

That's a sign of a broken system.

Use Canada's system, cut your mediacare/aid tax, and your companies no longer need to spend money on healthcare when employing them. Using Canada's system removes the tax on jobs that the U.S. loves so much.

> You get to have that system because the US has taken on the role of global police

Why? Who benefitted from invading Iraq? Who benefits from a dozen different aircraft carrier groups around the world?

You act as though "invading Iraq" is the only thing the US military has ever done. That's a little myopic, don't you think?

Again, your numbers don't really have any meaning on the healthcare thing. It's a far more complex discussion than you are attempting to make it.

No country in the world comes close to health spending as the US. I'm sure that's american exceptionalism though.

The U.S. military doesn't seem to protect anyone against modern threats - terrorism, propaganda, rigging elections, etc.

IIRC The stated goal of our (Sweden) armed forces is something like the ability to defend 1-2 regions for a single week if we are faced with an invasion.

Our defence budget is 1% of GDP because we are betting on the US (and a few others) continuing to spend as it does, and that it will be in their national interest to help us if the time comes.

If the US slashed its defence budget to a 'reasonable' level, we would have to increase ours in turn to the best of our abilities. If the US brought theirs down all the way to 1%, the only people laughing would be the PLA and Putin himself.

Switzerland has no military, it's not that bad.
Switzerland not only has a military, it has mandatory military service for all males.
Switzerland definitely does have a military.
Fun fact, though: their air force has office hours.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/shortcuts/2014/feb/19/swis...

Switzerland has mandatory conscription.
Switzerland actually even has military ships. [1]

[1] Patrol boats of the Grenzwachtkorps.