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by naasking 2760 days ago
> Yup, free will is meaningless, there's no measurable difference between an universe which has a free will and one that doesn't.

Actually there is: in a universe with free will, you must have intelligent agents that can understand their own actions and learn from their choices. A universe lacking free will would lack these qualities, and be observably different as a result.
1 comments
ajuc 2760 days ago
> A universe lacking free will would lack these qualities

Why?

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naasking 2760 days ago
Because free will merely requires the ability to understand the choices we're making and learn from them, like I said.
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szemet 2760 days ago
AlphaZero made choices in chess, and learned from them. So did I get you right: it had a free-will because it is a necessity for this behavior according to you? Because mere "machines" can't make decisions, and can't learn from consequences.
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naasking 2760 days ago
> AlphaZero made choices in chess, and learned from them. So did I get you right: it had a free-will because it is a necessity for this behavior according to you?

That's domain-specific learning, not general learning. If you could then take AlphaZero out for coffee to talk about a match and why it made certain choices, I'm fairly certain you'd be less confident that it wouldn't qualify.

> Because mere "machines" can't make decisions, and can't learn from consequences.

I disagree. Humans are a type of machine.

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ajuc 2760 days ago
Am I getting you right? If Alpha Go was able to hold a conversation you'd assume it has a free will? Even if you know it's a program on a deterministic computer?

Or do you say it's impossible to make such a program on deterministic computer, and will never be possible, no matter how far IT develops?

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naasking 2760 days ago
If a computer is able to hold a conversation about any topic, was able to understand and learn from its choices and explain its thought process leading up to a choice, then yes, it has free will.

I have no doubt whatsoever that computer programs could have free will, even deterministic ones. The qualities that are relevant for free will simply have nothing to do with determinism.

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