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by meelash 5703 days ago
1. Okay, but this is not relevant to the story in question (see point 4).

2. Okay, but this is not relevant to the story in question (see point 4).

3. Okay, but this is not relevant to the story in question. (see point 4)

4. I'm willing to cede this and the previous 3 with regard to the parent. The question then becomes, do you believe in religious freedom enough to take the risk, or would you rather remove this threat and lose the religious freedom? The hypocrisy of subverting the constitution in order to protect the constitution is untenable. If you are truly concerned about this, it seems you should be explicitly campaigning for an amendment to the constitution to more strictly define the "acceptable" religions. If you're too ashamed to explicitly get behind that, it shouldn't be hidden by unwritten policies of arbitrary harassment of certain religions.

5. I'm embarrassed someone on Hacker News would except that video as "legitimate interpretation". The fundamental factual errors about the Qur'an and Islam would be comical if it wasn't juxtaposed by the sadness of meeting someone that actually believed that without independent research. (Nearly?) every factual statement made to support the opinions presented is factually incorrect:

(a) "The Qur'an is not full of symbolism or vague analogies-- implicitly stating that the New/Old Testament are "full" of symbolism and vague analogies and not meant to be taken literally- a self-serving, unsupportable implication.

(b) It is mostly direct commands-- false, by far, by any interpretation of "mostly"

(c) The Qur'an contains contradictory statements-- he seems to be confused about abrogated verses- actually, any statements of early Islam that were abrogated later were removed from the Qur'aan before its final compilation as a book.

(d) The Qur'an ITSELF provides a way to know what to with the "contradictions"-- ??? this simply does not exist

(e) "It's explained in the Qur'aan.... "-- Again, this does not exist. It's simply a bald-faced fabrication.

(f) The peaceful tolerant passages were "written" earlier in Muhammad's career-- again, false. The earlier passages did not deal with either peace or war, they dealt mostly with self-rectification. The later verses, after the establishment of a monolithic Islamic community with communal dealings with the outside world, added to that verses with guidance regarding both peace and war.

(g) "those passages have been abrogated..."-- see point c- if that were so, they would have been removed entirely during compilation

(h) "There is no picking and choosing" -- finally an accurate statement

That brings me to 2:54, and I'm too bored to continue answering nonsense that any 10 year old Muslim sunday schooler could have responded to.

6. See 5.

7. See 6 and 4.

Yeah, I just pulled a http://xkcd.com/386/ But you know what, it was cathartic after reading some of the embarrassing comments on this piece. I just picked the most ridiculous one and went to town.

1 comments

After looking over the counter-arguments you have provided and talked a Muslim friend of mine, I have come to the conclusion that like many other religions, it is possible to "interpret" out of the holy book pretty much whatever you want to interpret.

I think that the way the Qu'ran words it, you could legitimately interpret it the way that that blog post did, and I think that you can legitimately interpret it to be peaceful. (Not that that makes the Qu'ran legitimate. I hate that religious books aren't perfectly unambiguous.)

Based on this I think that we should judge the individual, not the religion.

However, based on statistics, it has been members of this religion that perform terrorist attacks, so profiling makes sense. I just don't think it needs to be done in the manner described in this story, especially for U.S. citizens.

In my ideal society, we wouldn't even have airline security for U.S. citizens, regardless of religion. This means that every once in a while, a terrorist would slip through the cracks. But such is the price of freedom. Perhaps even the good guys on the plane would be armed and take out the bad guy before he could cause harm.

(a) I'm afraid you missed my point. I purposely stayed away from all matters of interpretation, and only replied to factually incorrect statements. None of the counter-arguments I presented were matters in which interpretation could be done, they were all factually incorrect statements, on whose basis that video was making interpretations. Now if the basis of an interpretation is a bunch of factually incorrect statements, then what need is there to argue further on the validity of the interpretation of those statements? It is meaningless.

(b) Now addressing interpretation, you cannot legitimately interpret the Qur'aan either the way that video words it, nor "to be peaceful". Rather, as appropriate to its claim of being a complete life-guide, it will necessarily contain the laws, morals, and motivations of both war and peace.

(c) "Religious books aren't perfectly unambiguous"-- have you done an exhaustive survey of all "religious books" to be able to make such a bold, broad statement? It seems likely you're relying on very limited information regarding a few religious books and abstracting, without any possible justification, to all religious books. This seems likely to be more based on personal dogma than rational thought.

I think you've correctly called me out on all three points. It looks like I have some studying to do before responding to you intelligently.