| > If you are an adult and you see an example of people of all backgrounds working together to do science, including people that look and behave like you do, and your take away from this is "OOOOH I AM NOW OPPRESSED" That... is not at all what I said. At all. I am confused how you got that from what I said. I said that women have the problem of not seeing women in science, while men have the problem of seeing public interest and support for only women in science. Nowhere did I suggest seeing women in science would be detrimental to men. The reason I bring them up together is because one is a result of attempting to fix the other. So, to try again. Remember I am not talking about end results, or ideals or where the world should be, or any of that. I'm talking about how things make people feel. You accept that not seeing women in science makes women feel they are unwelcome. Meanwhile we have people repeatedly stressing the importance of women in science, and seeing many groups formed explicitly to promote women in science. Men are not seeing any of this directed towards them. The parallel here is pretty trivial. Men can see this and feel unimportant and like they are not welcome. Is that an acceptable or even necessary consequence to achieve a more egalitarian society? Maybe? I don't know. But either way it's rather callous to brush off these feelings as merely a result of people being "broken" and "wrong." > Nobody is... nobody is or ever will be right? Basically? I don't even know how to define "right" in a meaningful way here without the ability to run world simulations or predict the future. Your motivating principles are all great and I agree with them. The differences emerge in the details of how to act on them. For example, some people view the goal as exact equal representation in all fields, presumably with respect to population demographics though I don't hear that often said explicitly. Other people think the goal should be for each person to have equal opportunities without requiring exact proportional representation. Some people think the time limit on reaching the goal, whatever that goal is, is immediate, while others are fine seeing this take a more natural (and lengthy) course. Some people are more okay with the ends justifying the means than others. These are all significant details that people can argue about at length while all wanting to see the exact same outcome. I want the outcome you do. That does not mean I need to agree with you about how to get there. > In passing, I will also note that your comment and grandparent weight a hypothetical bad equally with a demonstrable bad. I reject this weighting. I'm not sure how you come to the conclusion one is hypothetical while the other is demonstrable. We're seeing men react poorly to the current actions, and not always in appropriate ways. Considering I'm arguing largely about how people are justified in feeling a certain way, I'm not sure what else you need here before you consider their feelings to be sufficiently demonstrated. > Seems like pretty dichotomous positions to me. Hopefully by now you see how they are not. You are largely saying that certain actions are good things because they solve problem X. Grandparent is saying those actions are also causing another problem Y. Actions need not be purely positive or negative. > The grandparent should absolutely fix their heart. You're really getting needlessly personal and as I keep trying to show, are basically telling them their feelings are wrong because there are other problems in the world. It's really rather condescending and makes it harder to take your argument in good faith. |