[bobbygoodlatte]

I'm curious how these systems would function against a malicious entity. For example, if someone flooded the sensor with laser light.

That sort of behavior might be made illegal (if it isn't already), but I'd be curious to know if self-driving systems have ways of dealing with it, or if they just shut down

[dllu]

It's pretty illegal to point lasers at vehicles. Many states and countries have laws against that. For example, in California,

California Penal Code Section 417.27

(c) No person shall direct the beam from a laser pointer directly or indirectly into the eye or eyes of another person or into a moving vehicle with the intent to harass or annoy the other person or the occupants of the moving vehicle.

[dsl]

It is illegal for a laser pointer, where most people defer to the FDA definition of "... handheld lasers that are promoted for pointing out objects or locations."

There is already established case law around this, where larger hobby lasers intended for popping balloons and theatrical lasers are exempt.

You could build a large array of laser emitters intended to obstruct self driving vehicles (say you wanted to create a fake wall to prevent a car from driving the wrong way), and safely ignore these laws.

[dragonwriter]

> It is illegal for a laser pointer, where most people defer to the FDA definition of "... handheld lasers that are promoted for pointing out objects or locations."

No the law in question defines the term, it doesn't defer to the FDA; Cal. Penal Code § 417.27(f): «As used in this section, “laser pointer” has the same meaning as set forth in subdivision (c) of Section 417.25»

Cal. Penal Code § 417.25(c): «As used in this section, “laser pointer” means any hand held laser beam device or demonstration laser product that emits a single point of light amplified by the stimulated emission of radiation that is visible to the human eye.»

[dsl]

If you read the definition you just quoted at me, it is basically the same.

Any device that emits more than a single point of light, or is not hand held is not covered.

[dllu]

You're right, I stand corrected. It is just a matter of time before that gets banned as well, though.

[dogma1138]

How do drivers currently handle things if someone blinds them with a laser?

[dev_dull]

Probably similar laws and penalties as if you flooded a drivers eyes with lasers.

[androidgirl]

Relevant xkcd:

https://www.xkcd.com/1958/

[deepnotderp]

They could be using coding techniques like a Barker code or something

[choot]

I think dynamic patterns can be added to laser beams (similar to what cryptography), which randomly change that will make flooding difficult if not impossible.

[dogma1138]

Those patterns and various frequency shifts are often used to prevent secondary reflections and to be able to operate in a saturated environment.

A powerful commercial laser can easily damage the CCD but again it’s not an issue drivers can be blinded by lasers already and are constantly blinded by other things like high beams and highway camera flashes the closest I came to being night blinded twice is when a red light camera was triggered on an intersection in both cases I got honked for not seeing the light turn green because I couldn’t see shit for like 5 seconds.

Not every system needs to be resilient to adversaries we don’t drive in armored cars or have active protection systems against ATGMs put on our SUVs.

If an asshole wants to jam cars they’ll be able to they’ll get caught and go to jail that’s more than enough for these systems to be reliable.

If you think about it we already have systems which we rely on everyday that can be jammed with $50 worth of gear like cell phones and GPS these aren’t adversary resistant but we don’t cry about it because it’s not an issue.

[tjoff]

It's not an issue because loosing GPS or cell phone coverage is in the vast majority of cases just an inconvenience. Also, no critical system relies on it blindly (part from emergency calls).

A high speed collision is not comparable.

A human has tons of options being blinded by a laser. Obscuring it for one.

Also the ease of which an attack can be performed is of immense importance. It is quite the barrier to pick up a rifle and start to shoot at vehicles. A handheld laser is something people do just for shits and giggles.

This is something that helicopter pilots are quite aware of.

[dogma1138]

>A human has tons of options being blinded by a laser. Obscuring it for one.

Really? get a 500mw laser into your eyes at highway speeds and I can guarantee you it's a crash, the pain and the shock from being blinded you aren't going to react rationally you going to twitch uncontrollably.

GPS and Cellphones are constantly used for life critical services and can be jammed easily but no one is doing that.

>This is something that helicopter pilots are quite aware of.

Helicopter pilots being blinded by lasers isn't the same thing as drivers at those altitudes the laser beam has spread sufficiently to while remain dangerous at least not being painful.

Helicopters also often come with some sort of auto hover mode these days and you can maintain attitude without sight landing would be hard but you aren't at risk of crashing into anything immediately.

[tjoff]

> Really?

Yes.

> GPS and Cellphones are constantly used for life critical services and can be jammed easily but no one is doing that.

They are being jammed. Not as often as idiots playing with lasers though. But for silly things like "my employer put a tracking device on my truck, if I jam signals I can do whatever I want".

> Helicopter pilots being blinded by lasers isn't the same thing as drivers at those altitudes the laser beam has spread sufficiently to while remain dangerous at least not being painful.

Can apparently break havoc on sensors though. And this happens over densely populated areas.

> Helicopters also often come with some sort of auto hover mode these days and you can maintain attitude without sight landing would be hard but you aren't at risk of crashing into anything immediately.

Good luck doing that downtown.

[a_t48]

I'd guess that if the car's LIDAR is suddenly blinded, the worse that would happen is that the car would slow down and stop. There would probably be recorded data on the incident that might even help find the one who did it.