[Svexav]

Why does it have to be a laptop? What not an iPhone with a desktop mode you can pair with a monitor, keyboard, and trackpad?

I’d love the ability to carry all my software and data around in a phone without lugging around a laptop or having to buy a desktop computer. And I’d love to never concern myself with transferring or syncing data again.

And why not let us connect an iPhone to an eGPU for desktop gaming?

[camillomiller]

Look up what Tim Cook thinks about convergence. That is not what an iPhone is for. Period. This gimmick is just a pipedream of us nerds. It won't have the slightest chance in the market and it would be a subpar product. Both Huawei and Samsung have implemented such a solution on their flagship smartphones since at least two years. They work as advertised, but nobody could give half a shit about them.

[dpkonofa]

You can't say "Period" like that. Apple's endgame (in the far future) is for you to wear an Apple device that allows you to sit at any Apple computer/display/device anywhere and access your information from iCloud. Right now, that doesn't make sense because we can't make phones or watches that are as powerful as a desktop PC. Tim's (and Steve before him) insistence is that people don't want to do advanced graphic work on a tiny screen. If you could wirelessly and seamlessly use the same device to do that work on a larger screen, powered by that phone, they would absolutely want to push that. They just want people in the ecosystem. It's not that those things aren't what an iPhone or iPad are for, it's that they're not what those devices are for yet.

[snowwrestler]

Ambient computing doesn't mean that all the computing devices can do the same thing, i.e. that a phone or a watch or a tablet will do everything a laptop can do. It means that distinct devices are integrated into a single experience in a complementary way.

> If you could wirelessly and seamlessly use the same device to do that work on a larger screen, powered by that phone, they would absolutely want to push that.

This vision works just as well if the larger screen is powered by its own computer instead of the phone.

[dpkonofa]

Sure, but the vision is that all the information is localized to one device that you own that is on your person at all times. Look at how big Apple is about privacy and security. The goal is to have as few attack vectors as possible while offering a seamless experience to the user.

[m_mueller]

I don’t think it’s just nerds. I think the idea has quite a bit of mass appeal [1], it’s just that existing versions are in some way unsatisfactory. the phone is already on its way to replace our wallet and I think it’s just a matter of time for it to replace our laptop bag. I’d very much welcome that if it could do all the things I’m doing on my Thinkpad, it’s just that human interface and OS are not there yet (meanwhile the chip, RAM and storage is not a problem anymore). Give me character input solution that’s >60% of a Thinkpad and maybe a fold-out screen that doubles the area of a 6inch device and you got it, for more I’m gonna sit at a desk with docking.

[1] see for example the movie “her”.

[jimbokun]

"it’s just that existing versions are in some way unsatisfactory"

You say this as if it is an easy problem to solve.

[stcredzero]

"It’s just that existing versions are in some way unsatisfactory," was exactly the problem that plagued smartphones before the iPhone.

[solarkraft]

Not easy, but something Apple is good at.

[Someone]

”Look up what Tim Cook thinks about convergence”

You can’t look up what he thinks, only what he says he thinks.

Apple would be stupid if they wouldn’t be researching this option just in case. If they ever manage to make it work well, you can be sure what Cook says he thinks about convergence will change overnight.

For those who need more convincing: look up what Steve Jobs said he thought about products Apple didn’t ship, and compare it with what he said he thought about them later, when Apple _did_ ship them)

[hermenaut]

Chromebooks are not a gimmick they are great laptop replacements for older folks who spend majority of their time on the web. As Apple keeps improving its own chips I have no doubt an iPhone can run a fast stable "chromeOS like" environment. Now how Apple would feel about canabalizing their iPad lineup by doing that is a different story but a chromebook/phone combo would do great in the markup imo, especially with how many older people there are that already know apples OS interface

[technofiend]

>Chromebooks are not a gimmick they are great laptop replacements for older folks who spend majority of their time on the web.

A friend of mine is a master real estate broker. He's a good example of someone can move almost entirely to a chromebook or an ipad because nearly everything is now web based. So it's not just old folks or people just surfing but regular people doing their jobs. In particular this guy is someone who has half his browser eaten up by toolbars and buys a new computer every few years "because the old one is too slow." A chromebook or ipad is a great place to park those people since they're curated environments and not the free-for-all virus delivery and identity theft machines PCs are for the unwary.

[CoolGuySteve]

Apple executives have a long-standing habit of saying something sucks for whatever reason only to come out a few years later with the same concept only slightly tweaked.

And now that Apple's on board with USB-C, which can do video/power/peripherals, it's not inconceivable that a Monitor+USB hub would be all you need for a plug and play iOS productivity station.

It would be a trivial firmware change for the next release of iMacs to support, and an extension of their existing target-display mode.

[skh]

Your comment reminded me of Seve Jobs mocking the idea of a pen for iPads. You can’t trust that such statements are true or that even if true today that they will be true in a few years. Ideas, tech, beliefs change and sometimes companies publicly proclaim things that are just plain false.

[Arn_Thor]

This is a pet peeve of mine.. Steve didn't mock the idea of styluses in abstract, he didn't want it to be the default and only way people interact with their devices. So Apple made the operation of iPad be all about the touch experience. Now, later on Apple released a much improved stylus as an optional, secondary and not at all necessary input method. That has nothing to do with the truth or untruth of Job's statement, nor is it inconsistent with what he said.

[skh]

My recollection is different. The only thing I could find on Youtube substantiates your claim. I was wrong. Thank you for pointing this out. I think my overall point still stands though.

[jacobolus]

Q: How do you close applications when multitasking?

A: (Scott Forstall) You don't have to. The user just uses things and doesn't ever have to worry about it.

A: (Steve Jobs) It's like we said on the iPad, if you see a stylus, they blew it. In multitasking, if you see a task manager... they blew it. Users shouldn't ever have to think about it.

The point was that using a stylus as intermediary when doing basic interaction with a touchscreen is indirect/awkward and unnatural (the mouse is too, frankly), not that nobody should ever use a stylus for drawing.

Styluses clearly have a big precision (and visibility) advantage vs. tracking a whole fingertip touching/sliding around the screen (i.e. if we compare inherent human capabilities, not specific hardware), but relying on a stylus is also much more prescriptive about acceptable hand movements, and all of the stylus-first mobile devices pretty much suck compared to finger-based multitouch, in practice.

[mixmastamyk]

“No video on the iPod” was my thought.

[iodiniemetra]

They don't work as advertised - they're terrible.

Besides Microsoft, Google has come the closest, but they're not pushing it as convergence.

I think it is the future, but it's going to be a difficult one that requires an excellent launch - at least 3 years off before the next major inroads.

[bsder]

> Both Huawei and Samsung have implemented such a solution on their flagship smartphones since at least two years. They work as advertised, but nobody could give half a shit about them.

That's more a reflection of the fact that Samsung and Huawei suck at software--Bixby, anyone?

Everybody said the same thing about WiFi.

I used WiFi when it first came out--PCMCIA cards, external stick on antennas, etc. Worked as advertised but nobody gave a shit about them---until you sat in front of somebody and used it. It was almost a virus and spread like one.

Then everybody gave a shit. And look where we are now.

Everything on your phone--everywhere--is the endgame.

[6nf]

> Everything on your phone--everywhere--is the endgame.

The endgame is everything on every device you own. Sometimes you'll use your watch. Sometimes your phone. Sometimes your tablet or laptop and sometimes your big screen TV. It's just differently sized screens that all connect to your data in the cloud.

That is the endgame here. Nobody wants to go swimming with their phone or watch a feature film on their phones or do 8 hours of office work on their phones.

[CoolGuySteve]

“No wireless. Less space than a Nomad. Lame.”

[aaronblohowiak]

I am on the other side of this bet. I believe it is just a matter of time and the Surface Pro / iPad Pro are paving the way for just that.

[dieterrams]

Agreed. I think it makes perfect sense to have a phone that can plug into a tablet or any other form factor. The thermals might not let you run an iPhone-in-tablet as fast as a dedicated iPad, but given how fast their chips are getting, it's probably just a matter of time.

[titanix2]

But Microsoft have no phone offering. And if they release a new phone, as a an ex-hobbyist Windows Phone developer who experienced all the consumer and developer hostile moves (no upgrade from 7 to 8, numerous lies, etc.) I'll be very reluctant to target this platform again. Other devs with experience on the previous phone platforms will probably have a similar view on the matter.

[AlphaSite]

Actually we don't know that. Apple and Microsoft are the only companies which can really deliver on this promise and I can't see Microsoft being in the position to move their dev base to a convertible future, but Apple... If they try they can deliver (its not a given, but if they execute and the strs align, it could happen).

[outworlder]

They don't give 'half a shit' because they are crappy. And that's not necessarily their fault.

Given the current performance numbers and the fact that we are switching to USB-C, which allows high speed connections to multiple types of devices, and we may be reaching a point where this is actually feasible.

[philwelch]

You might be right, but I'd like to unpack that a little. Why would that be the case?

Obviously, the laptop form factor is missing, but it would be...interesting if the iPad, iPhone, and MacBook were all pretty much the same compute device with different form factors and different battery sizes and possibly different storage sizes. Honestly, the form factor and user experience are going to be the biggest user-visible differences, and those are also the things Apple seems to care the most about (even if they don't consistently get it right!)

Also, why would you want a single physical device anyway? Because hardware is expensive? Sure, maybe. Because you want to keep all your data in one place? That's the purpose of iCloud. Because you don't trust the cloud and want to keep all of your data physically on the same device and still access it from multiple form factors? That's a small fringe of the market that probably wouldn't buy Apple products anyway.

[Svexav]

> why would you want a single physical device anyway?

All my files and apps setup they way I want them on a single device that's with me 24/7. Complete privacy and security because my data never leaves my device (except for backups to a time machine or iCloud).

I don't have to own multiple computers. I own one computer: my iPhone. There's only one device to setup, update, and maintain. If I want to have a larger screen, VR headset, eGPU, mouse, keyboard, speakers, headphones, etc., I just pair my phone to one. I can buy different peripherals for my home, my office, etc. but I don't to buy redundant computers.

Think of the Nintendo Switch.

[scarface74]

All my files and apps setup they way I want them on a single device that's with me 24/7. Complete privacy and security because my data never leaves my device (except for backups to a time machine or iCloud).

So you don’t want your data to leave your device for privacy reason but you back it up to iCloud?

[tk75x]

Encrypt your backups.

[nrb]

I think a lot of people (except maybe Apple shareholders) would be happy with a single physical device that handles a variety of use cases rather than paying Apple $1500 a pop, several times over, for the exact same hardware in different physical cases.

[philwelch]

Hardware is expensive, but how much of that expense is the CPU and how much of it is the variety of screens and cases that you would still need to have to switch form factors?

[nrb]

That depends on if you already own a TV or monitor, both of which are available for a small fraction of the price Apple charges.

[philwelch]

If you have a monitor, keyboard, and mouse, it's (theoretically) possible to use a smartphone as a desktop PC. That's also the least popular form factor for a computing device these days. Laptops or tablets would, even on the physical level, be much harder to pull off this way.

[crooked-v]

A single unified accessory market to end all accessory markets would probably be worth it.

[dieterrams]

Mobile OSes haven't been ready to accommodate desktop-level use cases. Apple is moving in that direction with iOS on iPad. Once they get there, convergence makes a lot more sense.

[Natela]

Samsung didn't implement convergence, they implemented Android-with-a-keyboard-on-a-big-screen . True convergence would be something like Ubuntu Touch wanted to do

[dharma1]

I worked on Ubuntu Touch (specifically convergence) for a few years.

I think it's really interesting what Apple are trying to do (with Marzipan, pro apps for iPad, desktop level SoC's) but I think they still have a couple of years work ahead of them. It's not an easy task, especially with so much legacy.

Getting Adobe and Autodesk to rewrite their flagship software for iOS was quite a good win, though I still wonder how those compare to the desktop versions

[jimbokun]

"Getting Adobe and Autodesk to rewrite their flagship software for iOS was quite a good win"

Now if they could only get Apple to rewrite their flagship Pro software for iOS.

[dharma1]

Touche. I think perf is becoming less of an issue, it's more about design challenges around touch/pointer UI density, screen real estate (depending on what the range of supported screen sizes should be)

[nicoburns]

Is there any reason apple couldn't just implement it so that the iPhone runs iOS normally (always) and boots into full macOS when in desktop mode? They share a kernel I believe, and the latest iPhones have plenty of disk space...

[TYPE_FASTER]

I think CarPlay is a test of this use. It's really similar, in that you connect your device to your car, and apps render a different view on a different form factor. You have a certification process so you know you have at least a chance of a good user experience. It's a subset of device functionality, instead of supporting more functionality.

If Apple invests in enhancing CarPlay, it might be a sign that they are scaling to a wider convergence market. If they don't invest or abandon it, then maybe convergence won't happen. They're famous for saying they're not working on projects that they are actually working on, so we have to read between the lines.

After upgrading from an iPhone 6 to an iPhone XR, I've been thinking how close the latest gen devices are to traditional computers anyway. The configuration/settings and features are so far beyond the first gen devices that I think convergence will happen, nobody knows what it will look like yet.

[OldHand2018]

I don't disagree with you, but I'd like to point out that iOS apps have long been able to render a view on a television (via an AppleTV) while also rendering a different view on the device screen. This has been possible for at least 4 or 5 years.

There have been a few party game apps that allow a person to drive the game on their device while the other participants see what is on the TV. I don't think it ever really caught on; perhaps partly because AppleTV was a niche product way back when and partly because it didn't get much advertising.

[gumby]

I think the difference in what the PP was saying is that with CarPlay you can interact with the program while with external video you can only watch.

[gambiting]

>>What not an iPhone with a desktop mode you can pair with a monitor, keyboard, and trackpad?

That sounds like the most un-apple thing I can possibly imagine. Their ethos was always to build a device that does something incredibly well - a phone that can be a phone but also a desktop computer is everything but this.

[bitwize]

ISTR seeing illustrations from an Apple patent showing a computer display with a slot in the back into which an iPhone can be docked, turning the phone into a full-size desktop workstation.

And this was during the Jobs era.

[threeseed]

Apple pays their employees to file patents for pretty much anything.

That doesn't mean they will ever manifest in real products.

[Redoubts]

How do you figure? The iPhone was unveiled as a 3-in-1 device during its first keynote.

[aaronblohowiak]

The iPad is already this but with a bigger screen.

[gambiting]

No, I'd argue it isn't. Even if you connect an external keyboard an display to the iPad, you are just getting the ipad experience on a larger screen. There is never any transformation of interface when used this way. Apple has never allowed mouse/trackpad on iOS(with some very very narrow exceptions) so it's not transformative - you are still getting the same experience essentialy.

For it to work on the iPhone, they would have to add support for some kind of mouse/trackpad, because the iphone itself is sitting in the dock - and I don't see apple doing that in a million years.

[solarkraft]

iOS still has a long, long way to go. It seems like they're preparing all the hardware, though.

[tlrobinson]

Personally I'd rather have a "2-in-1" style MacBook + iPad Pro. I'm almost always going want to bring the screen and keyboard with me anyway, but it would be nice to have something I can use for both "real" work and casual use on the couch etc.

[chongli]

Why sell us one device when they can sell us two or three? I own an iPhone and a MacBook Pro. Why would Apple want to leave all that money on the table by converging these two devices?

[xienze]

>What not an iPhone with a desktop mode you can pair with a monitor, keyboard, and trackpad?

Because that would mean Apple doesn’t get to sell you two devices.

[flohofwoe]

iOS is too restrictive for a development/productivity machine since it doesn't allow to install software from outside the app store (something like homebrew would be a security nightmare). The UI model of iOS also is still too touch-centric (while touch input provides zero advantages for a command-line interface).

But attach a proper(!) keyboard with touchpad to an iPad Pro, put macOS on it instead of iOS, and there's your next MBP ;)

[lysp]

Because they want you to buy a phone, a tablet, a laptop, a pc.

Sure - one device could do everything, but that doesn't drive sales or profit.

[blackstrips]

I can see the iPad being used like a laptop but the iPhone ... the screen is a little small no - even the largest iPhones.

[sundvor]

You just described the Samsung DeX.

[tlrobinson]

And the Motorola Atrix before it: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorola_Atrix_4G